Author Topic: Question on Frizzen Tip Over  (Read 5384 times)

Offline Artificer

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Question on Frizzen Tip Over
« on: September 22, 2010, 06:18:08 PM »
Folks, I've heard you all mention frizzen tip over but I don't understand how one knows if it is great, good or bad.  I assume it is bad/worse when the frizzen doesn't tip over at all or is very late, correct?  (I understand a flint that is too short will also cause this, so I'm not talking about that.)   Other than that, I don't quite understand how you know when to adjust it.

Also, I imagine the tension of the mainspring and frizzen spring has something to do with it?   I've read where folks talk about balancing the springs, but I don't fully understand that, either. 

Most of the work I've done on flintlocks has been on repro or original military guns so I'm more used to springs that are pretty heavy.  I have worked on some original and repro civilian locks, but not many. 

Gus

northmn

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Re: Question on Frizzen Tip Over
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2010, 06:35:34 PM »
Frizzens should stop at a fully open position where the frizzen spring acts like a stop.  Halfway open causes slow ignition.  On my Siler that I used on my smoooth rifle I lightened the frizzen spring some, but found that a bit of gun oil really makes a difference on opening as it really snaps open with just that bit of oil wher the toe makes contact with the spring.  I had a L&R Durs Egg one time that would totally demolish a flint and had to weaken both the main spring and frizzen spring.  You had to really pull just to cock the thing.  Too weak of a spring can cause the frizzen to bounce back and bust flints also.  they also do not spark as well if too weak.  On an old Lott styled lock I put a roller in the frizzen just to increase spring tension, which made it spark better (it was one of the old Italian imports).
Smaller rifle locks are faster than the military locks but do require that they be tuned a little better.  Balance is nothing more than the frizzen spring permitting itself to be opened by a well installed flint.  The mainspring usually has to be strong enough to cause spark without shattering flints.  A fully opened frizzen is highly desired.  The English used to put rollers in the system to attain that.

DP 

Offline Stophel

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Re: Question on Frizzen Tip Over
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2010, 06:52:50 PM »
I make mine to snap over just as the flint reaches the very bottom edge of the frizzen.  It has to do with the shaping of the frizzen spring as it relates to the "toe" of the frizzen.  As a general rule, you want the top arm of the frizzen spring to be as near to horizontal as possible.
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Question on Frizzen Tip Over
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2010, 08:06:25 PM »
Folks, I've heard you all mention frizzen tip over but I don't understand how one knows if it is great, good or bad.  I assume it is bad/worse when the frizzen doesn't tip over at all or is very late, correct?  (I understand a flint that is too short will also cause this, so I'm not talking about that.)   Other than that, I don't quite understand how you know when to adjust it.


Gus


If it works, there is no need to adjust it.  If you have problems with the frizzen snapping over center even with reasonable length flints, it may need some adjusting.   As a very general rule, the frizzen will open to about 30 degrees before going over center.

Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: Question on Frizzen Tip Over
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2010, 12:08:56 AM »
If you have a frizzen that doesn't want to pop on open at the proper instant, (with proper springs, flint strike, etc.), the shape of the point of the toe may need a little work.  At the CLA show a few years ago, LC Rice showed me the trick to "makin' 'em snappy".  I ain't gonna try to explain it from memory, but if I can find the notes and drawings I made at the time, I will post them.

Or maybe one of the resident lock experts here will chime in.

-Ron
« Last Edit: September 23, 2010, 12:12:01 AM by KyFlinter »
Ron Winfield

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Offline Artificer

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Re: Question on Frizzen Tip Over
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2010, 07:02:17 AM »
Gentlemen,

Thank you for the replies, it does give me a better understanding.

Gus

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Question on Frizzen Tip Over
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2010, 05:19:46 PM »
And make sure its not simply coming back after being full open.
Unless it stops the cock and fails to open this is often the case. Slow motion testing by letting the cock down with your thumb will tell if it kicks open as the flint comes off the bottom of the frizzen. Even then inertia may carry it open anyway.
Stopping the cock us usually a weak mainspring or a too soft frizzen and the flint digs in.
In my experience, weakening springs is a bandaid for some other problem which the process may not fix as desired.

This is a very reliable lock. Easy on flints, think I got 150 shots at LEAST from the flint shown.  Large Siler frizzens with no change in the toe shape. I find that the Siler frizzen with the toe canted back, TOW sells them, opens too soon but I have not tried it in a standard lock.



But its not the fastest. Needs more mainspring but this would require a major remake of the internals.
HOWEVER. It works far better with one English flint than with another. The flint is a major variable in flintlock performance. Its not all the same unless you get a batch of flints all made from the same core and maybe not then.
This could be another factor in the bevel up/bevel down thing as well (??)

This lock is fast and reliable gives reasonable flint life and has springs that would make the advocates of light springs have thumb cramps cocking it. But flint life takes second money to going off when desired. It seldom needs to have the flint knapped and actually once the flint stops working it can't really be sharpened and used more than 1-2 shots with out more misfires.



I lightened to springs on my Don King flint Hawken to the point it nearly quit sparking. Don then told me to put on a L&R #1700 frizzen which fits perfectly with a little fitting. I then got a new mainspring, from the guy that bought all Don's stuff when he moved to Billings, and its really strong, but the lock no longer breaks flints since the new frizzen has a curved face, the old one was too flat even after I put some curve in it. I don't know what it was cast from but it did not want to bend.
This rifle would break some flints on the first shot. And honestly this may have been *frizzen rebound* as this can be a factor and can break the flint off even with the lower jaw at times.



One other thing a lock may work differently in the gun than out. Either because of possible wood binding slowing movement OR because being fixed in the gun makes the parts work right. No movement of the plate when installed in the stock as is possible when hand held.

Dan
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northmn

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Re: Question on Frizzen Tip Over
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2010, 07:12:56 PM »
I only have had t weaken the springs on one lock, but it was necessary as it would break flints and they would only last 3-4 shots, so springs can be too much of a good thing.  It worked very well after they were weakened. I ahve a odern version that works quite well and does not have springs that strong.  However, weak springs are very often the cause of poor performance.  They used to sell a hand forged spring for large Silers to pep some of them up a bit, and one builder I knew made his own mainsprings for the small Siler. Yet silers work very well with factory springs as a rule.  As I mentioned, I had to place a roller in one lock to depress the frizzen spring more to get enough resistance for better sparking.  There were a few locks in the 70's and 80's that I think were hopeless because of this issue and I still try to be diplomatic when someone says they see one for sale.  Essentially they were absolute junk in flintlocks.  Personally I have not seen extra speed from frizzen rollers as that they do assist in opening to full position and may save a bit on flints when stronger springs are used.  The stirrup system used on late English locks permitted stronger springs and shorter throws which may have increased speed a bit.

DP

Offline Artificer

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Re: Question on Frizzen Tip Over
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2010, 07:45:07 PM »
Dan and DP,

Thanks for adding that additional information.  I really appreciate it.

I'm going to print out these posts and refer back to them in the future.

Gus