Rifle Design

[LURCHWV@BJS]

Recently I posted a thread on Drop and how to choose which is best.  I was told to shoulder different Rifles and find one that suits me.  I did just that.  First I shouldered a Virgina Rifle It felt reeaaal gooood. Loved the lines I knew one like this was for me.  I also shouldered a Tennessee Rifle or would it be Armed one since It was more for shooting from the upperarm. Now I ask your forgiveness I am still learning the terminology so I will say things as best as I can.  I figured in my trane of thought it's a simple remedy just put a Tennessee style Buttplate on a Virginia Rife.   Then I started reading " Recreating The American Longrifle" by Buchele,Shumway and Alexander.  In chapter two on Gun Design 9th paragraph pg11 & 13
it stated," Some schools of gunsmithing used vey distinct and uniquefeatures, each of which is beautiful in it's own place. But it is poor taste to pluck some of these features out of their artistc context and use them undicriminately on a composite rifle."  It goes on with examples.
  I know this forum has some of the greatest researchers to be found.  So I ask,  Has anyone seen a Virginia Rifle with a Tennesse style Buttplate?  I really don't wish to fall in the catagory of an Interpretive builder.  Slowly learning.


  Rich

[James Rogers]

1. When you refer to a "Virginia" rifle what characteristic(s) are making it a "Virginia" in your mind?
Are you speaking about the generic guns that some of the more production oriented companies are marketing as "Virgina" rifles? Are you speaking mainly about the wide flat butt area?

2. By "Tennessee" buttplate are you specifically referring to only the crescent characteristic? Many guns made in Virginia have that same characteristic.



Some characteristics are more time frame oriented and some are geographic or "school" specific.
Some characteristics although defining and attractive to look at actually suck in practical usage.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

"Some characteristics although defining and attractive to look at actually suck in practical usage."

James, Tell us how you really feel ...don't hold back now.............

Even the small curve on my Peter Berry buttplate hurts with 85 grains of fffg!!!  I like the wide flat ones!!   Now the others are nice to look at................
 
 
 
 

[northmn]

If you are building anything over 45 caliber the wider flatter buttplates of the early rilfes or English rifles are much easier on the shoulder.  I have never understood how the curved steel butplate became popular but it was, even on a 405 Winchester  Amazing how style can over ride function.

DP

[LURCHWV@BJS]

Yes, the Virginia Rifle I shouldered had a flat Buttplate. It had been built by either Ian Pratt or Jim Kibler.  I guess I need to do more reaserch on the matter.  Since I live in a state that was born from another maybe I shuold be looking for Picture and Information of rifles and Gunbuilders of North Western Virginia Early Age.



   Rich

[flintriflesmith]

Rich,
The question of what modern parts or kit suppliers mean by a "Virginia Rifle," as opposed to what better informed collectors of antique longrifles, lead me to write an article for my web page on just what is a Virginia rifle.

You may have already read this but now that you have gained a bit more knowledge and experience I think it might help to take another look at the article.

http://www.flintriflesmith.com/WritingandResearch/WebArticles/VirginiaRifle.htm

I am in agreement with those that think it is best to build a rifle where all the componets and artistic features combine to present a rifle that is representative of a particular period and regional style. In my earliest work I didn't know enough to do that and made my first rifle with Lancaster style carving on an Allentown shaped stock with a Western PA patchbox!

Gary

[Ed Wenger]

Rich,

You might want to look at some rifles by the Sheetz and Lauck families, from the Winchester area.  The earlier examples typically have a straighter, wide butt piece, with the latter rifles having more of a concave shape.  Look at the library here on ALR.  Gary's link also has some nice examples, and is very informative.

There's a lot of York County and Littlestown School influences, I think, associated with rifles made in the North Western / Winchester area, which makes sense based on travel routes, etc.

There's also the "Klette" rifle out of Stevensburg, VA.  Might be more of a Piedmont rifle, but a very good example of a fairly early rifle.

                  Ed

[rich pierce]

These guys all have you on the right track.  But wether Virginia, Pennsylvania or elsewhere, buttplates before 1775 ran to about 2" wide with little curvature.  Top one is RCA 21, lower is Free Born.  All pictures below were taken from the excellent website American Historic Services http://www.americanhistoricservices.com/html/antique_rifles.html.





In the 1780's-90s, 1 and 3/4" and some curve would be average. 

maybe this Schroyer is a good example.




In the early 1800's, less than 1 and 3/4" wide and more curvature. 



By the time we get to late flint rifles, the curvature became really pronounced and buttplates may be less than 1 and 5/8" wide. 



So the differences in width and curvature often have more to do with date than with where they were made.  New England rifles were somewhat of an exception, the folk up there being practical and all.

[G-Man]

There are some great rifles of the late 18th century made by the Sheets family members working in the area around Sheperdstown, Berkley County, (now West) Virginia.  Check out the Martin Sheets rifle on American Historic Services.  Phillip Sheets worked in this area as well.  These generally fall into the 1780-1800 era. 

There is some evidence that on early Appalachian region rifles (western NC, East Tennessee, SW Virginia) - by early here I mean based on surviving examples that may fall into the pre-1800 realm, maybe 1790s-1800, narrower butts with more pronounced curve perhaps caught on a bit earlier than their counterparts farther north and east.  Check out the feature on the Joseph Bogle rifle in the virtual museum, or the rifle that Dennis Glazener posted photos of a few weeks ago.  These guns probably fall into that 1790-1810 realm, with the Bogle probably being just a bit earlier than the other.

As far as the issues with very deep curved buttplates - on the appropriate style rifle, I love them.  I do believe they are meant to be shot more off the upper end of your bicep with your elbow out, instead of up high on your shoulder with elbow locked down, and keep in mind on Tennessee rifles they were usually small bores with  heavy long  barrels so no recoil.  But I would not use one on a 1780 era rifle.  They are more appropriate for post-1820.

Guy