Author Topic: Hawken Breech & Tang  (Read 11934 times)

Offline BrentD

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Hawken Breech & Tang
« on: December 02, 2010, 05:31:25 AM »
I've fitted my Hawken breechplug.  Now I'm fitting the plug to the tang - the mating parts are a real pain and I have never seen a good discussion of how to do that.  

But one thing that would make things easier with shaping the external profile of the tange to the breech would be if the darn tang would stay connected. To that end, I have an original English 2-groove sporting rifle that has a hooked breech and it has a set screw coming in from the bottom that helps seat the hook up into the female socket of the tang and also will hold the tang onto the hook when out of the stock if snugged just a little more.  

Is such a thing a good idea or generally considered a faux pas.  I'm not so worried about authenticity as long term form and function.  

Anyway, commentary invited.  

Brent
PS.  While I'm on it, as a rule do folks brown the barrel with the breechplug on or off the barrel?  I've done it both ways and don't like either one.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2010, 05:34:58 AM by BrentD »

Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: Hawken Breech & Tang
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2010, 06:26:32 AM »
Brent,

On my recently completed rifle, I used superglue to hold the tang and breech plug together for shaping and inletting.  It comes apart easily, too easily sometimes, just scrap off the dried glue and re-glue.  I've heard some solder them together, but I've never had much luck with solder, hence superglue.  I guess a set screw would work and who would know.

I browned my barrel with the breech plug installed.

-Ron
Ron Winfield

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omark

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Re: Hawken Breech & Tang
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2010, 06:36:54 AM »
ive never seen a screw like you describe, but sounds like it might work. i also have seen the tang soft soldered on.     i always brown with the plug in and brown the tang with other parts.    mark

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Hawken Breech & Tang
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2010, 08:31:39 AM »
I've fitted my Hawken breechplug.  Now I'm fitting the plug to the tang - the mating parts are a real pain and I have never seen a good discussion of how to do that.  

But one thing that would make things easier with shaping the external profile of the tange to the breech would be if the darn tang would stay connected. To that end, I have an original English 2-groove sporting rifle that has a hooked breech and it has a set screw coming in from the bottom that helps seat the hook up into the female socket of the tang and also will hold the tang onto the hook when out of the stock if snugged just a little more.  

Is such a thing a good idea or generally considered a faux pas.  I'm not so worried about authenticity as long term form and function.  

Anyway, commentary invited.  

Brent
PS.  While I'm on it, as a rule do folks brown the barrel with the breechplug on or off the barrel?  I've done it both ways and don't like either one.

Hooked breeches shoot more accurately when "locked" to the tang.
I have the breech color casehardened . Its the correct finish.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Hawken Breech & Tang
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2010, 08:32:24 AM »
Once I'm happy with the union of the tang and plug, I solder them together into one unit, and install the plug into the barrel.  Then I inlet the tang and plug together, the barrel itself already having been inlet fully.
I've browned them both in and out, and prefer them apart for finish.  If left in, there is always a line at the junction that shows bright more or less, from oil that weeps out of the joint.  A disadvantage of browning them separately, is with a patent or hooked breech, there is a possibility that you will mark the fresh finish reinstalling it into the barrel.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Hawken Breech & Tang
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2010, 09:43:28 AM »
Some have used red loctite to glue them together, and just heat them up with propane torch when done to seperate them.     Gary

westbj2

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Re: Hawken Breech & Tang
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2010, 02:24:05 PM »
Brent,
The screw that you mention coming up from the trigger plate of your English rifle is meant to secure the bottom of the tang in its mortise.....not to act as a "lock" for the breech hook. If the geometry of your breech hook and its corresponding mortise in the tang is correct, the concave radius of the breech hook interior and the convex radius of its back side will contact the standing breech mortise at the same time resulting in the needed lockup.
As Dan says, color harden the plug and tang.  It is the appropriate finish and the hardened (correctly fitted) parts relationships will never change.
Jim Westberg

Offline Ted Kramer

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Re: Hawken Breech & Tang
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2010, 02:53:06 PM »
Brent,

Might be unorthodox but a quick zap with the mig on the bottom joint of the tang/hook holds it during the inletting. Then, when done inletting, file the little blob off to release it.

If you brown the tang and plug, brown the barrel with the breech plug installed. Completely degrease everything before screwing the two together and you'll have no problem with a white line.

Which barrel did you decide to go with?

Keep us posted on your progress.

Ted K.

Offline BrentD

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Re: Hawken Breech & Tang
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2010, 03:50:19 PM »
Thanks to everyone for the replies.   I will glue it on there.   That will make life much easier indeed. 

Ted, the barrel is a Green Mt. C profile, 42".  I will cut it to 36 or perhaps 32".  This will be a light rifle.  Possibly too light, but I'm going for it.  I think with the right stock fit, it will be very manageable with respect to recoil and still be a very easy carrying rifle. 

Dan, that is a handsome pistol in the extreme.  Who did the CC for you?  Shiloh?  I like the looks of the rust blue too.  But weren't all Hawkens browned?  Then again, I'm not trying to reproduce and original.

Jim, case coloring does look good, and I like its wear properties, but won't the tang probably warp pretty badly given it is so long and slender?  Man, I miss your shop.  Hope retirement is treating you well and some of those singleshot project in particular are coming along well.

Brent


Offline Greg S Day

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Re: Hawken Breech & Tang
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2010, 04:22:38 PM »
Brent,

One other suggestion not mentioned would be a 2 part epoxy.  Glue them up and inlet them.  A little heat breaks the epoxy bond and you can file or sand the remnants off.

I've used this method and it worked well.

Greg
He Conquers Who Endures

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Hawken Breech & Tang
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2010, 05:58:17 PM »
Thanks to everyone for the replies.   I will glue it on there.   That will make life much easier indeed. 

Ted, the barrel is a Green Mt. C profile, 42".  I will cut it to 36 or perhaps 32".  This will be a light rifle.  Possibly too light, but I'm going for it.  I think with the right stock fit, it will be very manageable with respect to recoil and still be a very easy carrying rifle. 

Dan, that is a handsome pistol in the extreme.  Who did the CC for you?  Shiloh?  I like the looks of the rust blue too.  But weren't all Hawkens browned?  Then again, I'm not trying to reproduce and original.

Jim, case coloring does look good, and I like its wear properties, but won't the tang probably warp pretty badly given it is so long and slender?  Man, I miss your shop.  Hope retirement is treating you well and some of those singleshot project in particular are coming along well.

Brent





Wyoming Armory has a case hardening Guru named Keith Kilby.

He normally answers the phone if you call.
307-527-4570

Hawken breeches were case hardened as were other parts locks etc, even the brazed buttplates I have heard (yes you can caseharden brazed parts).
These were high end guns and were built to last.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline BrentD

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Re: Hawken Breech & Tang
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2010, 06:18:46 PM »
Thanks, I know Keith.  He has a lot of my money.  I have one of his rifles....

keweenaw

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Re: Hawken Breech & Tang
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2010, 08:05:57 PM »
The tang won't warp appreciably if the person doing the color hardening pays attention to what he's doing.  Even it if did warp a slight amount, it's mild steel and the core is soft so it can be sprung a bit to return it to it's original geometry.

Tom

Offline Ted Kramer

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Re: Hawken Breech & Tang
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2010, 04:01:13 AM »
Brent,

That barrel choice sounds like a good plan. You won't notice the recoil when hunting anyway. It should be easy to carry unlike the last Hawken I built. That was a brute but I took it out 3-4 days during the  m/l season here last year. I decided it was too much for my old, arthritic body to handle so it's now on the wall at Track of the Wolf. Some younger, stronger dude can wrestle with it. I could handle the one you're building!!

Ted

Offline BrentD

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Re: Hawken Breech & Tang
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2010, 05:07:21 AM »
Ted, you sound like so many of my friends that have or made really nice but heavy Hawken rifles.  They hunt once with them and they the rifle sits and comes out only for show or target range work.  In my other life, I carry 11 lb Ballards or Sharps rifles for hunting, over mountains, and across Africa and the western plains.  They are great guns but the weight becomes noticeable.  I'm not a wimp per se, I cut, split, haul and stack enough firewood to heat this house all winter hear in Iowa, but I'm no superman, so I don't like the heavy gun if I don't need it. 

I built a Plains rifle from a Deer Cr. kit for my wife.  It is a .50 cal with a decent length of barrel and yet it weighs only 8 lbs if that.  I load it down for her at the range and load it up for hunting.  She used to kill the $#*! out of deer with it before she quit the business.  That's when I realize I could have a Hawken that wasn't a boat anchor.

I suppose the original rifles were so heavy to handle the heavy charges in the old-time steel or iron barrels but I wonder if that was really necessary.  Of course they were manly men that I will ever be.

Brant Selb is going to build a Hawken on a 1" to 7/8" tapered barrel that he recently acquired.  That might be just about ideal but such barrels are hard to find and may require long waits from custom barrel makers. 

One interesting trick I never thought of is to use a wood rib.  The recently posted photos of the cherry-wood ribbed Plains rifle is an interesting option I had never thought of.  But I'll be using steel on this one. 

I am definitely enjoying building this rifle.  I apologize for all the pesky questions I ask, but I do appreciate the answers everyone provides. 

Now it is off the shop - more work on the tang - now glued to the plug with gap=filling super glue.  And maybe inlet the barrel and tang combination while I'm at it.  :)



Offline Dphariss

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Re: Hawken Breech & Tang
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2010, 08:21:45 AM »
Thanks, I know Keith.  He has a lot of my money.  I have one of his rifles....

He makes REALLY nice knives too ;D

Dan
« Last Edit: December 04, 2010, 04:43:32 AM by Dphariss »
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omark

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Re: Hawken Breech & Tang
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2010, 07:26:59 PM »
something that hasnt been mentioned in the weight thing is bore size, that can make a lot of difference. i built a fullstock hawken with a 1"X36" .62. it is a pretty good sized rifle, but a lot of people are surprized  when picking it up.  even at that, it is getting to be a  load for me as i get older (anyone know a cure for that?)  right now im building a jaeger in 54 and thinking about building one in .62 for myself. sure do like that cal, except for its lead appetite.   mark

Offline Ted Kramer

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Re: Hawken Breech & Tang
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2010, 08:11:08 PM »
Mark,

Bore size does make some difference. The heavy Hawken I have at TOTW has a 1-1/8" X 31" X .50 cal bbl. and weighs around 11 pounds. If I had kept it, I would have breeched a .62 barrel to use for hunting, that would have lightened it by about one pound. I took it hunting last year only because someone had talked me out of my large caliber flint rifle and the percussion Hawken was all I had suitable for deer.

Ted K.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Hawken Breech & Tang
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2010, 10:21:43 PM »
something that hasnt been mentioned in the weight thing is bore size, that can make a lot of difference. i built a fullstock hawken with a 1"X36" .62. it is a pretty good sized rifle, but a lot of people are surprized  when picking it up.  even at that, it is getting to be a  load for me as i get older (anyone know a cure for that?)  right now im building a jaeger in 54 and thinking about building one in .62 for myself. sure do like that cal, except for its lead appetite.   mark

Recoil in a hawken is not a lot of fun over 54 caliber either.
At least not with the commercially available buttplates.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Hawken Breech & Tang
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2010, 10:53:34 PM »
Quote
I'm no superman
Brent,
Are you speaking of your physique or ego?  ;)
Perhaps the latter has mellowed with age.
Dave Kanger

If religion is opium for the masses, the internet is a crack, pixel-huffing orgy that deafens the brain, numbs the senses and scrambles our peer list to include every anonymous loser, twisted deviant, and freak as well as people we normally wouldn't give the time of day.
-S.M. Tomlinson

Offline BrentD

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Re: Hawken Breech & Tang
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2010, 10:56:12 PM »
Recoil is, indeed, a not so insignificant issue.  One reason I don't go larger than .54.  Besides, I just like that caliber.  

I use a .54 flintlock that is bit over 11# I think.  It can and often is loaded to produce 1970 fps with a roundball.  Which is moving along right smart.  It also gives me a pretty good whack.  About as much as I really want to take.  

But a big big part of recoils is the shape and length of the buttstock.  In the case of my flinter, the stock is from a Track blank that had the trigger pull essentially pre-determined, and too short. I get a lot of thumb-knuckle dents in my face in addition to everything else.  

This rifle will be different. While I'm using a pre-shaped blank, it is only as an approximation.  Bondo and whatever is needed will be applied to get this rifle to fit the way I want it to fit.  If I have to, I'll bend the sucker and I have the gear to do that.  It will have a much longer LOP.  I have longish arms and a whacky neck that  sets up better with LOPs in the high 14" range.  Not the sub14" range that the flinter has.

Anyway, I think a stock with the right configuration and built to fit will handle the recoil much better than a lot of the off the wrack rifles and stock blanks that I have experienced.  That's the plan anyway.  

One thing I have considered though.  Pounding out the buttplate a little to make it a bit wider - not a lot, but just enough to spread some of the punch.  Many thanks for that idea.

Brent

Dave: both. But mine have never been able to run with yours... ;)  :o

omark

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Re: Hawken Breech & Tang
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2010, 11:51:07 PM »
a pound is approximately 10%. while not a lot, it is too much not to be considered. granted that fit is more important than weight. i shoot my 62 for recreation with 50 grs of 2f and is quite comfortable. i hunt with 100 grs of 2f and while i dont want to use it all day, it is manageable for me under those conditions. seems i cant come up with something that is light enough to carry and has light enough recoil and still have the energy i want for hunting. just means i have to keep looking and trying new guns.    oh well!!!   mark

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Hawken Breech & Tang
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2010, 04:40:03 AM »
a pound is approximately 10%. while not a lot, it is too much not to be considered. granted that fit is more important than weight. i shoot my 62 for recreation with 50 grs of 2f and is quite comfortable. i hunt with 100 grs of 2f and while i dont want to use it all day, it is manageable for me under those conditions. seems i cant come up with something that is light enough to carry and has light enough recoil and still have the energy i want for hunting. just means i have to keep looking and trying new guns.    oh well!!!   mark

Energy?
Energy and a guide to killing power does not convert to blackpowder arms well. Some of the larger 22 centerfires will exceed the 45-70 BP load in  many cases. Energy figures favor higher velocity.
If you want to shoot 62 and larger the best stock design in the English sporting rifle.
This rifle has a 5" x 2" English fowler plate. Shooting a one ounce ball never hurts me if I shoot it right, shoulder pocket used, and it will make as much as 3000 foot pounds ME but that is largely meaningless in this context. With BP its generally the size of the hole that determines killing power. The remaining energy drops way back at 100 with any RB anyway.



But at around 3000 ME it does make recoil.



Its ball park 10-10.5 pounds.
A 62 could be nine without much recoil trouble.
I would prefer a 62 and up for Elk but the 54 will work and is plenty large enough for deer.

Dan


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Daryl

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Re: Hawken Breech & Tang
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2010, 11:24:36 PM »
My 14 bore is 9 1/2 pounds - capper, though with a 32" bl. 1 1/8" x .69 cal.  I shoot 82gr. 2f for plinking out to 100 yards. For serious work, 145gr.2F GOEX today, gives me the same ballistics I used to get with 165gr.2F GOEX- or so it seems.  With a 2" side butt plate and proper design for a kicking gun, recoil is quite tolerable, just like with Dan's rifle.  The recoil shoves the shoulder down, drawing the comb away from your face. It never cracks you as some other designs will - including a Hawken.

My .58 Hawken used to punish me - even with round balls as it was a hunting rifle only and demaned 140gr. 2f to be accurate at 100yards and beyond.

The newer .69 English (1986) styled gun does not punish me at all even though I have torn cartilage, fore and aft, in my shoulder.  My heavy calibre modern guns did this for me.
Here's the before and after- aiming, then firing at the 200 yard target.




Here's my brother, Taylor- about circa 1976 or 77, shooting his .62 Hawken- probably using a healthy charge of around 140gr. 2F.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2010, 05:41:39 PM by Daryl »