Cocking twice

[Walker Mountain]

Just had our annual turkey shoot last weekend and was nice to see participation from another local club (same State different country) but notice several shooters having to cock a second time to set off the cap. I was too busy being spotter for hit’s scored to get a closer look but did notice all the problem rifle have that adjustable wind-age  & elevation rear sight like the one on T/C rifle. I started out and still have a T/C hawken but seldom use it and had the same miss-fire problem and never like the feel of that coil spring T/C uses when cocking. Could this coil spring be part of the problem or is it all in the fit of the nipple?    Free Trapper

[hanshi]

I'm guessing the caps were not fully pressed down on the nipple and the first hammer blow seated the cap and the second blow fired it.  This has happened to me on occasion.  Either a larger size cap or a good hard press to seat it would solve the problem.

[Roger Fisher]

Being a sissy gun shooter at times myself. I suggest those nipples on those rifleguns in question may have been mushroomed enough that the cap was not down upon the anvil and it took the 2nd hammer throw to do so..file the mushroom.  Also, the hammer cup may have been  catching the edge of said cap the first throw and managed to pass on the second.  Loose hammer,  possible.   Opening the hammer nose a bit with your pet dremel helps this problem.  Easy fix.  Weak m spring also possible.

[BrownBear]

If they were Lyman rifles and factory nipples, they're notorious for that with CCI caps.  Rem caps are fine, but a change of nipples is required for happiness with CCI.  Mushroomed nipples is a likely possibility if it was a "new" phenomenon, but I can't see a bunch of them mushrooming all at once, any more than sudden problems with coil springs.

[Roger Fisher]

If they were Lyman rifles and factory nipples, they're notorious for that with CCI caps.  Rem caps are fine, but a change of nipples is required for happiness with CCI.  Mushroomed nipples is a likely possibility if it was a "new" phenomenon, but I can't see a bunch of them mushrooming all at once, any more than sudden problems with coil springs.

To the best of my knowledge RWS caps are a tad tighter than CCI caps and if those folks were using the RWS that could also be the culprit.  I hope Rem. has improved their caps so the fulminate stays put.  A few moons ago I quit them for that reason.... blanks I don't appreciate at all.   

[BrownBear]

I hope Rem. has improved their caps so the fulminate stays put.  A few moons ago I quit them for that reason.... blanks I don't appreciate at all. 

No kidding!  Same experience.  I picked up 20 tins at bargain price ($2 ea), but I would never use them on hunts.  I opened each of the cans, and every blessed one had at least a couple of loose pellets floating around.  Gack.

[Standing Bear]

The TC bridle can become loose and cause problems.  Also caps can become stuck in the hammer and cause similar.
TC

[bgf]

I had several duds with CCI primers last winter, and just this Sunday a shooter next to me (with a traditional caplock) had the same problem with some he bought at Friendship, probably last fall -- maybe a spotty batch, although I would hope long gone by now for the most part; it partly corresponded to the ammo shortage, so I figured QA was down .  Those were caps that just wouldn't go off (and didn't appear to have anything in them), though, not that would work on the second try.

[smylee grouch]

I have a TC Hawken that I use for a loaner that has the same problem once in awhile, and it also has hammer blow back to half cock often. I wonder if its because of weak main spring or in the case of blow back maybe nipple orfice is too large. Anyone have any simmiler problems?    Gary

[Daryl]

As you can see - there are several causes.  With our chosen guns, this happens often, when a single malfunction could have a multitude of causes.

Address each one, until you find the culprit and fix it.  Check them all though just for the knowledge of what to look for - next time.

[Roger Fisher]

I have a TC Hawken that I use for a loaner that has the same problem once in awhile, and it also has hammer blow back to half cock often. I wonder if its because of weak main spring or in the case of blow back maybe nipple orfice is too large. Anyone have any simmiler problems?    Gary

Sure, easier to replace the nipple (beware the metic sized nipples)

[Roger Fisher]

I had several duds with CCI primers last winter, and just this Sunday a shooter next to me (with a traditional caplock) had the same problem with some he bought at Friendship, probably last fall -- maybe a spotty batch, although I would hope long gone by now for the most part; it partly corresponded to the ammo shortage, so I figured QA was down .  Those were caps that just wouldn't go off (and didn't appear to have anything in them), though, not that would work on the second try.

My experience with CCI CAPS!!  has been perfect and I get them by the sleeve..  Maybe I should not plan that far down the road at this point in time   Did I say I shoot a fair amount?   Plus the flinters.

[northmn]

Sometimes with a cap lock the nipple gets a little mushroomed itself such that the caps do not fit snugly.  I used to stick the nipple in an electric drill (not so tight as to bugger the threads) and turn down the tip with a file to give it a slight radius. Cured a lot of problems.  Also as some mentioned, some caps can lose their primer.  One lock required a new mainspring as it was pretty muchy.  I also have bent hammers and used one of those Dremmel cutters that leave a square bottom to align the hammer such that it hits the cap square.

DP

[BrownBear]

...but notice several shooters ....

I keep coming back to that.  I have the mind set that it was a recent experience, because I can't see a single shooter coming to a shoot with the recurring problem, much less "several."  I can't imagine several guns at once developing the problem, especially if several models were involved.  Being a club though, it's easy to imagine a group buy on caps delivered the day of the shoot.

Or was YOUR club supplying THEIR caps?  Talk about a great way to rig the outcome!!!   

[bgf]

I had several duds with CCI primers last winter, and just this Sunday a shooter next to me (with a traditional caplock) had the same problem with some he bought at Friendship, probably last fall -- maybe a spotty batch, although I would hope long gone by now for the most part; it partly corresponded to the ammo shortage, so I figured QA was down .  Those were caps that just wouldn't go off (and didn't appear to have anything in them), though, not that would work on the second try.

My experience with CCI CAPS!!  has been perfect and I get them by the sleeve..  Maybe I should not plan that far down the road at this point in time   Did I say I shoot a fair amount?   Plus the flinters.

Roger,
They should be fine -- I think purchase was fall/winter of 2009, and just a single tin out of several that either of us had problems with; may have even bought at same vendor -- I had bought some at Friendship at the same time (roughly, fall 2009).  I've bought and used several tins since with no problems that I can recall.  They can all have problems, and it may follow a pattern, was my only point, if I had one .

[Dphariss]

Just had our annual turkey shoot last weekend and was nice to see participation from another local club (same State different country) but notice several shooters having to cock a second time to set off the cap. I was too busy being spotter for hit’s scored to get a closer look but did notice all the problem rifle have that adjustable wind-age  & elevation rear sight like the one on T/C rifle. I started out and still have a T/C hawken but seldom use it and had the same miss-fire problem and never like the feel of that coil spring T/C uses when cocking. Could this coil spring be part of the problem or is it all in the fit of the nipple?    Free Trapper

Make sure the cap is bottomed on the nipple.
Make sure the hammer strikes the nipple square are well.
Misfires like this are dangerous.
Dan

[Walker Mountain]

...but notice several shooters ....

I keep coming back to that.  I have the mind set that it was a recent experience, because I can't see a single shooter coming to a shoot with the recurring problem, much less "several."  I can't imagine several guns at once developing the problem, especially if several models were involved.  Being a club though, it's easy to imagine a group buy on caps delivered the day of the shoot.

Or was YOUR club supplying THEIR caps?  Talk about a great way to rig the outcome!!!   

  Been scratching my head on this one too that why I took the time to post looking for possible answer. Don’t know the shooters but one gentleman had his 12 year old granddaughter shooting having no trouble with miss-fire, they were sharing the same cap box. Been awhile back but did play with the nipple on my T/C hawken with improvement but still occasional miss-fire which is too many for me.  Been using same style of nipple from Track on my Jim Bridger’s Hawken with no trouble using all brands of caps. Like I said before don’t like the coil main spring, guess it ok if everything else is set up right but I prefer a heavy spring design like the original. Good solid blow should forum and fires any cap first time just my opinion. Free Trapper

[Daryl]

"""Misfires like this are dangerous.
Dan"""

Weak ignition is the cause of hangfires.  Hangfires that go off before the gun is brought down out of battery, are non-events - those that go off seconds or minutes later, which can happen under the right or wrong conditons, are very dangerous.

I-too dislike coil springs - but - must state that for the 2 years I had one, I had no problems with ignition. I know of peening of the nipple - so kept a close eye on the nipple. These days, people don't seem to start off in BP with a good book - like we did - ie: - Ned Roberts "The MuzzleLoading Cap Lock Rifle" should be a manditory read before shooting a muzzleloading rifle.
 
 
 
 

[Walker Mountain]

"""Misfires like this are dangerous.
Dan"""

Weak ignition is the cause of hangfires.  Hangfires that go off before the gun is brought down out of battery, are non-events - those that go off seconds or minutes later, which can happen under the right or wrong conditons, are very dangerous.

This is a good safety point and a good reminder for shooters to stop and think when a misfire occurs. I’ll do a write up in next club news letter on this subject and start taking note of people having problem and take the time to fine out why. As a rule in are club were suppose to keep the barrel pointed down range on misfires and use a CO2- discharger, but I still see shooters putting down the ramrod to see if they loaded and how long to wait is safe? Don’t want anybody hurt on my watch.
  Free Trapper