Damascus fowler barrels??

[Longknife]

I have two 1810 era single barrel English fowlers. The barrels have been polished bright. I applied tru-brown to one to see if I could get any pattern to show but only got solid rust. Would these barrels be a type of Damascus or not??? I know I need the mercuric/ferric and nitric solution to properly do this but browning has worked before on suppository guns for me. I have checked on ordering these chemicals but come up with over 200 bucks worth!!!! Ed

[doug]

     Try polishing about 1" or 2" of the bottom flat and wipe copper sulphate on it.  That normally will demonstrate damascus pattern almost immediately.  Just sand the area clean with roughly 140 grit abrasive tape with no oil.
    I think some of the commercial browning solutions are a dilute version of the mercuric solution found in Foxfire 5 and used by Oscar Gaddy.  Rusting solutions that take time as opposed to the rapid browning ones.

      Not all fowlers are damascus steel; I have a Nock fowler in the basement right now that appears to be wrought iron or at least shows no sign of a pattern although I have not given it the copper sulphate treatment.

cheers Doug

[Feltwad]

Longknife the barrels in question are iron barrels and are forged in the same manner as damascus around a mandrel.As I live in the Uk I use an original browning solution
To brown this type of barrel you need a cold slow damascus browning solution,which is applied and left for 12 hrs until a good rust has formed this is removed with steel wool and another coat of solution is applied.It will take about a week to do a barrel and after the last coat the barrels are dipped in a warm solution {not hot} made with logwood chips this will bring out a pattern which will be of a mottle effect and also any forged water marks which colour wise will have a mixture of light brown, light blue and black.The secret to a good browning job is the preparation and the finishing,my restoration of antique weapons I brown on average of four sets of damascus barrels per week.
Feltwad

[Dave B]

Feltwad,
Thanks for that discription. I am not familiar with what Logwood is. A type of tree or just chips from any hard wood tree? 

[woodsrunner]

I may be way out in left field with this comment, but IIRC Logwood was/is a specific species of tropical hardwood. I don't remember the common or Latin name. I remember this from my forest management work in Belize, Central America years ago. Belize, the former British Honduras until 1981, was Spanish owned, and the Brits leased the rights to harvest Logwood from the tropical forests there. The British ended up claiming the territory by adverse posession and kicked the Spanish out totally. That's why Belize is today the only country south of the Rio Grande that speaks English as the official language. All due to Logwood

[Feltwad]

Logwood is a type of tropical hardwood ,from where it comes from I have know idea when dried the chips are a light brown in colour .Years ago it was used as a herbal remedy but today if you can still find it is used for dying wool and fabrics.
Feltwad

[Lucky R A]

Logwood is available from trapping supply houses.  It is used to dye animal traps and give them somewhat of a rust resistance.   You generally place it in water and boil the traps in the solution.  It removes odors and colors them.   

[Longknife]

Thanks, Feltwad, Would you care to divulge the solution recipe and procedure for doing this? And wher would I get logwood??I sure would like to try it on these barrels.....Ed

[Feltwad]

Longknife.
This is the recipe for logwood solution that I have used for the 50+years, take one teaspoonful of logwood chips and place in a plastic bucket ,next with a gallon of boiling water scold the chips, the solution will change to a purple colour.Then pour the solution into a trough like tank just enough to cover the barrel when laid flat ,wait until the solution is just warm then dip the barrels, let them stand for a minute then dip again,repeat until the desire pattern is shown.Finally  dry the barrels with a clean cloth and apply a coat of pure beeswax after rewarming the barrel.
Here in the UK in the past logwood chips could be purchased at any chemists shop {drugstore}but today I purchase mine from wool dyers who specialize in herbal dyes
Hope this has been of some help and good luck with your browning not forgetting that a good job is in the preparation of the barrel and the finishing
Feltwad

[R. Hare]

Feltwad,

Would it be out of line if I asked you if you could post a picture of some barrels recently browned?

It may be nice for Longknife to see something of what can be expected, re. stub-iron twist pattern, as opposed to a two or three stripe damascus.

Re. browning solution,
I have a recipe I brought over here when I came from England, but have bother with finding the tincture of steel, and even the Nitric these days.

I think anyone contemplating browning barrels would find the late Oscar Gaddy's article on this subject very interesting. I think it was in the "Double Gun Journal" but not sure now.

All the best,

Richard.

[doug]

      I suspect the solution that Feltwad uses is a mercuric solution similar to the ones described in Foxfire 5 and by Oscar Gaddy.  They are alternated with short etchings with ferric chloride.  I suspect the choice between boiling water and logwood is whether you want a blackish brown finish or a brown finish to the dark portions of the pattern.   I normally use Oscar's solution with no copper sulphate but will add a small amount of copper sulphate to the rusting solution if Oscar's solution is not working.  The finish that I get can vary considerably from barrel to barrel because of the difference in metal composition.  I also card with wet steel wool rather than dry wool because otherwise all of the rust tends to come off.  It is my impression that some of the slow rusting solutions sold commercially are very similar to the ones that Oscar described and that I am guessing Feltwad uses.  Further if you check Angier's book on browning solutions you will find all of his solutions for rust browning are relatively similar and unless I am mistaken all or nearly all were mercuric.
      I don't claim to have nearly the experience of Feltwad but I have refinished 30 or 40 sets of barrels over the past 8 or 10 years.
     Almost forgot, the purpose of initially checking with copper sulphate is to confirm that you have a pattern to develop in the first place.  It is not a permanent finish.

cheers Doug

[JTR]

Google is your friend.
'buy logwood' resulted in many results, including this one.

www.aurorasilk.com/info/logwood.shtml

Good luck,

John

[Feltwad]

Enclosed are images of different types of Damascus barrels

This is a Spanish iron barrel of 1750 note the mottle effect in the iron

This is a stub twist damascus barrel of the 1830 period

This is an etched damascus barrel with the damascus patten raised

This is a best quality damascus barrel


There were other different types of damascus barrel such as Rose scroll but most came at a later date in the early breech loading period.The most used in the late flint and percussion era was the stub twist and iron barrels.
Feltwad

[doug]

     Here are a couple that I have done but keep in mind that not all come out this well.  Also note that on the double shotgun, two different patterns of barrels were used presumably because it was an economy grade gun.  Also have found different patterns in the breach area versus the main portion of the barrel

cheers Doug

[R. Hare]

Doug,

That first barrel is a very nice stub twist. Nice work!

Feltwad,
I think you have answered a question for me!

That last gun, what bore is it?
I have been given a very high quality pigeon gun barrel, 6-bore, and was thinking it was a late flintlock from about 1826,
but looking at your breech, it may well have been a tube-lock.  Never crossed my mind!
Could you post details and further pictures, under another thread?  I don't want to hi-jack this thread, but would love to see more!

Best wishes,

Richard.

[Feltwad]

Richard.
Give me a few days and I will come up with a thread on Tube locks,if you post an image of your barrel I will most likely give you some info on it.
Feltwad

[R. Hare]

Thank you Feltwad.

Will take pics.
Looks like mine and yours are from same stable.
John Cox?

Richard.