Author Topic: Styling question  (Read 9900 times)

SuperCracker

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Styling question
« on: December 08, 2010, 04:52:57 PM »
In the course of contemplating my next build I ran into something I was curious about.

I see where the overall styling of the rifle and shape of the stock is taken heavily into account when assigning a rifle to a particular "school". With certain styles being associated with certain builders. My question is this.

Did original builders rigidly stick to a certain style or did they do more what the customer asked for? I have a hard time seeing a builder turn down work if the customer asked for something that was outside the norm of what that builder normally did.

Or, is it possible that in, say the early 19th century, people wouldn't have seen enough variety to know to ask for something different?


Offline Long John

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Re: Styling question
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2010, 05:08:43 PM »
I think it was a mixture of several factors.  First a gunmaker was a product of a master/apprentice culture where he had been schooled by a master gunmaker who was building rifles with a particular look and style and this apprentice had been taught that this is what a "proper" rifle looks like.  Second the customers were local folks who were accustomed to seeing work by other local makers and that's what they were inclined to buy. "Build me a rifle like Schmidt's gun."  Third, many gun makers were essentially gun stockers - they bought locks, castings, etc and assembled the gun from thos parts.  The gun furniture they used was what the itinerant peddlers had on their wagon from their last restocking trip to Philadelphia or the southern port cities.

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Offline J. Talbert

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Re: Styling question
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2010, 05:36:02 PM »
That's a question that has been kicked around here before.  There is no simple short answer.
Styles and schools were constantly developing and evolving, along with the makers within in them, and one part of this development would have been from the movement of a given maker from one geographic area to another.  
Makers would have developed a style based on the sum total of their training, skill level, exposure to other styles, customer demands, and of course his own personal likes and dislikes.
Some makers, such as Geo. Eister,  made guns so distinctive and consistent that even the unsigned ones are easily attributable to him.  Others show great variation over the length of there productive life.  Some of this change can be traced to movement from one area to another,  some to the change of styles and technology, and some to their personal creativity.

Ultimately it's a question we can never answer completely.

Jeff
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Styling question
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2010, 07:25:21 PM »
Agreed, this question has been kicked around and it's clear that some makers did and some did not vary their style.  You won't find a Rupp with a Lancaster styled stock and patchbox, nor a Dickert with a Rupp styled patchbox and architecture.  Though Schroyer varied his artistic elements a lot, the York architecture is present first to last.

In contrast Albrecht seems to have built rifles in both the Christians Spring and Lancaster styles.  Since he was a journeyman in Europe, he probably worked in many styles in his life and thus was trained to be flexible and make what the local market expected.  All of this placed in the context of changing styles over the working life of a gunsmith.

Speculating that it just makes sense that a customer would come in and say to Rupp, "Make me a Dickert" and Rupp would reply, "Sure, I can do that" is just speculation until we see the Dickert-styled Rupp.
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keweenaw

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Re: Styling question
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2010, 07:46:43 PM »
One of the problems in making a gun of a different style for a early gunmaker was the furniture.  He had the models he used to sand cast his guards and buttplates.  Making new models in a different style would take considerable time and hence run up the cost.   

We know of some gun makers, like John Schneider, with a working life of more than 50 years who almost never signed guns and who moved a number of times.  If people like him had been working in a single style we would be able to pick out their work due to the large number of pieces that would have been produced.  But we can't which means the styles must have varied.  The pieces he made in Heidelberg Twp. before the Revolution must be different than what he made in Allentown right after the Revolution which in turn must be different from the pieces he made in Lancaster in the late 1780's and early 90's which must have been different from the pieces he made up by Lewisburg until 1820 or in Clearfield Co. after 1820.

Tom

SuperCracker

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Re: Styling question
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2010, 09:02:03 PM »
What brought it up was mental sketching about my next project.

I was thinking if I were alive and it was the early 19th century and I lived where my family lived then (SE & central Ga.) and had turned old enough to get a rifle built what would I get? I like the inlays and look of the Higgins Gamecock rifle, and he would have possibly been who I actually went to see, but I also like the lines of Bercks Co. So, would I go to him and say " I love your other stuff I've seen and want you to build me a rifle but....

I'd like the stock shaped a bit more like xxx

It needs to be shorter as we stay mounted in the brush almost all the time.

and I'd like a bit larger caliber.



What would I end up with?

Offline Stophel

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Re: Styling question
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2010, 09:51:38 PM »
There were a lot of gunsmiths.  If you didn't like the gun he made, you went somewhere else.  You wouldn't write the Winchester factory and ask them to make you a rifle just like a Remington.   ;)
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Styling question
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2010, 10:29:58 PM »
What brought it up was mental sketching about my next project.

I was thinking if I were alive and it was the early 19th century and I lived where my family lived then (SE & central Ga.) and had turned old enough to get a rifle built what would I get? I like the inlays and look of the Higgins Gamecock rifle, and he would have possibly been who I actually went to see, but I also like the lines of Bercks Co. So, would I go to him and say " I love your other stuff I've seen and want you to build me a rifle but....

I'd like the stock shaped a bit more like xxx

It needs to be shorter as we stay mounted in the brush almost all the time.

and I'd like a bit larger caliber.



What would I end up with?


They made what people wanted just like now. Look at the variation of the Antes guns. They surely made what they were used to but if someone arrived with a broken rifle and wanted the stock copied for the restock any competent maker could do this pretty easily. If they were paid to copy or closely reproduce a style they could. Thinking a rifle maker would chase someone off with cash money is just too silly to contemplate. Yeah it could happen. But if the guy had the money in the vast majority of cases they had the time.
Cash was just too hard to come by.

Dan
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Styling question
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2010, 01:28:31 AM »
What brought it up was mental sketching about my next project.

I was thinking if I were alive and it was the early 19th century and I lived where my family lived then (SE & central Ga.) and had turned old enough to get a rifle built what would I get? I like the inlays and look of the Higgins Gamecock rifle, and he would have possibly been who I actually went to see, but I also like the lines of Bercks Co. So, would I go to him and say " I love your other stuff I've seen and want you to build me a rifle but....

I'd like the stock shaped a bit more like xxx

It needs to be shorter as we stay mounted in the brush almost all the time.

and I'd like a bit larger caliber.



What would I end up with?


A fantasy gun.  And that's great, if that's what you want.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Styling question
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2010, 01:36:33 AM »
By and large, I believe design details used were developed by the gunsmiths themselves with little direct input from customers.  Sure, the community and the world they lived was an overriding influence, but it's hard for me to imagine a customer directly dictating design elements on a wide spread basis.  I would question whether many customers would even have the knowledge for such a thing to happen.  Styles that developed in a community became faimiliar and with that likely came expectations from customers, so a gunsmith changing styles when moving seems perfectly reasonable.  A huge advantage of working in a particular style is the effieciency it creates.  In a competive environment and considering the marginal existance of many people at this time, effieciency was likely a requirement to make it as a gunsmith.  Some gunsmiths of course changed designs more frequently than others, but I believe this was generally a personal choice rather than customer driven.  Those who did vary designs frequently, likely had the ability to do so and mantain a minimum efficiency.  Over a career, overriding artistic styles changed and so did the designs used by the gunsmith in order to have a competitive edge or to possibly keep up with general customer expectations.  To my mind, the customer may have had some influence on the gunsmith, but it was by and large in more of an indirect way.

Offline Pete G.

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Re: Styling question
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2010, 02:14:28 AM »
I would think that most customers went to a shop to buy a guy, not necessarily to have one built. This would tend to keep the smith's style more or less constant. I find myself repeating some details from one gun to another fairly often, which tends to make a build go a little faster, and would help considerably if one were earning a living doing this. I think if I were doing it for a living that I would try to keep a couple of pieces in inventory.

Offline Don Getz

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Re: Styling question
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2010, 02:28:08 AM »
I think most guns were built for local customers.   I seriously doubt that a customer from Lancaster county would have gone up
to Berks county, or Lehigh county, just to buy a gun.   Growing up in Snyder county, and only about a mile from where Joe Long
lived and worked, I have a feeling that a customer would have gone to Joe and told him the calibre, and perhaps he may have
wanted  a more fancy gun than Joe's standard, in which case he would have gotten more inlays, slightly more fancy patch box,
maybe a comb inlay, and maybe even some carving.   Of course, he may be pushing that $20 range then.   When you start
talking about Schools, almost all of the guns made in Snyder county in the mid 1800's had basically the same architecture.
They differed in patchboxes, inlays, trigger guards, and carving.    This is true of practically all of the recognized "schools"....
Don

Offline whitebear

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Re: Styling question
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2010, 04:22:29 AM »
This may muddy the water even more but, if there were a definite stile or "school" in Washington county and another in Baldwin county would the two schools merge to some extent at the hypothetical county line?
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Offline Nate McKenzie

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Re: Styling question
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2010, 07:30:06 AM »
This is illustrated by the guns coming from near the Lehigh-Berks Co. lines.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Styling question
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2010, 08:04:01 AM »
I think most guns were built for local customers.   I seriously doubt that a customer from Lancaster county would have gone up
to Berks county, or Lehigh county, just to buy a gun.   Growing up in Snyder county, and only about a mile from where Joe Long
lived and worked, I have a feeling that a customer would have gone to Joe and told him the calibre, and perhaps he may have
wanted  a more fancy gun than Joe's standard, in which case he would have gotten more inlays, slightly more fancy patch box,
maybe a comb inlay, and maybe even some carving.   Of course, he may be pushing that $20 range then.   When you start
talking about Schools, almost all of the guns made in Snyder county in the mid 1800's had basically the same architecture.
They differed in patchboxes, inlays, trigger guards, and carving.    This is true of practically all of the recognized "schools"....
Don

Just because the local area has become accustomed to a given stock design does not mean that the gunstockers in that area are incapable of doing anything else.
With all the unsigned rifles out there its impossible to state where they were made unless the can be certainly attributed. The Apprentices had to move on to other places and may well have made rifles they were used to for at least a while.
And as I stated before money talks.
So far as people traveling for any reason. People traveled a lot. If someone 50 miles away from John Armstrong liked his work and wanted one of his rifles why would he NOT go that far to get one? A rifle was a major purchase. Perhaps a once in a lifetime thing and not many could do work at Armstrong's level.
If a man could travel from the East all the way to St Louis to buy a J&S Hawken in the 1840s why would someone NOT travel to get a JP Beck or a Dickert if that was what he wanted? Not all makers of the 18th century made good rifles or good looking rifles.

Dan
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Offline TPH

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Re: Styling question
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2010, 04:57:37 PM »
Or, is it possible that in, say the early 19th century, people wouldn't have seen enough variety to know to ask for something different?



I think that is the answer to your question right there. People in the early 19th Century were not too widely travelled unless they were moving west or further south. You also said:

I was thinking if I were alive and it was the early 19th century and I lived where my family lived then (SE & central Ga.) and had turned old enough to get a rifle built what would I get? I like the inlays and look of the Higgins Gamecock rifle, and he would have possibly been who I actually went to see, but I also like the lines of Bercks Co. So, would I go to him and say " I love your other stuff I've seen and want you to build me a rifle but....

As a young man just reaching adulthood and having scraped and saved enough money to pay for a rifle, it is especially doubtful that you had seen a rifle from Berks County, Pa. or even from another area in Georgia unless a new man in your area had just relocated from there. Isn't it more likely that you would have so firmly established in your mind that "a rifle looks this way and this is what I want"? Of course the gunsmith building your gun would adjust the standard local design he usually builds to fit you and maybe add decoration (if you could afford it at your young age) to your taste.

Of course the wild card here is that the 'smith himself may have located from another area and is building something like he learned elsewhere or has developed a variation of a local pattern....  ;)
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g rummell

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Re: Styling question
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2010, 05:00:07 PM »
I think most guns were built for local customers.   I seriously doubt that a customer from Lancaster county would have gone up
to Berks county, or Lehigh county, just to buy a gun.   Growing up in Snyder county, and only about a mile from where Joe Long
lived and worked, I have a feeling that a customer would have gone to Joe and told him the calibre, and perhaps he may have
wanted  a more fancy gun than Joe's standard, in which case he would have gotten more inlays, slightly more fancy patch box,
maybe a comb inlay, and maybe even some carving.   Of course, he may be pushing that $20 range then.   When you start
talking about Schools, almost all of the guns made in Snyder county in the mid 1800's had basically the same architecture.
They differed in patchboxes, inlays, trigger guards, and carving.    This is true of practically all of the recognized "schools"....
Don
I agree with Don, what we have to remember that a rifle was a tool back in those days even though we consider them a work of art today and I believe that the people purchased what was readily available in the area that they lived. Think about it, that would be like me traveling from Bedford County to Bucks County to purchase a hammer because I liked the looks of the Bucks County hammmer. We all know that an individual may have purchased their rifle in one area and carried it with them on their trek westward and if it needed repaired they would have a local smith fix it. If it was just plum wore out they would purchase a new rifle from the smith in the area that they moved or traveled to.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 05:01:31 PM by G. Rummell »

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Styling question
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2010, 05:04:47 PM »
Dan, a couple of your premises seem to be going at cross purposes.

1) A customer wanting a rifle made like those made by gunsmith A would go to a local gunsmith ("gunsmith B") and request that he make a rifle like gunsmith A makes.  Gunsmith B would gladly do it, because nobody turns down business.

2) A customer wanting a rifle like the ones made by gunsmith A would travel to gunsmith A's shop to get a rifle in the style of gunsmith A.

It's all speculation anyhow! ;D
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Offline bgf

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Re: Styling question
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2010, 06:07:38 PM »
My speculation.

Too fantastic is my first reaction.  A young man with enough money and status to go request something like the Gamecock rifle is not going to be riding around in brush, and if he had seen a Berks county rifle, he probably said a silent prayer of thanks that he had better options (his reaction, not mine).  What brush?  The fields would have been cleared (not by him, of course); any woods that were left would have been burned clean.  If Indians were a problem requiring going into wilder areas, this young man would not have been a primary part of the solution.  After some more thought, however, eccentricity is not unknown in the south, especially among the offspring of planters, so Higgins might just have built such a thing for him, in which case it is probably listed somewhere as unknown in origin, being one he declined to sign and unattributable due to the heterogeneous stylistic elements. 

keweenaw

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Re: Styling question
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2010, 06:10:27 PM »
I looked at a signed Fondersmith rifle at Friendship the other year.  Beautiful work but without a doubt restocked by George Schreyer.  Owner was terribly disappointed when both Wallace and I pointed this out to him.  Went and sold the rifle.  Personally I would have loved to have a rifle that showed the work of two master colonial era gunsmiths kinda double the money.  Clearly some of these guys worked in their style, period.

Tom

SuperCracker

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Re: Styling question
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2010, 09:43:38 PM »

Too fantastic is my first reaction.  A young man with enough money and status to go request something like the Gamecock rifle is not going to be riding around in brush,

3 words. Cracker cow hunters. Them's my people. Fortunes were made riding around in the brush rounding up Spanish cattle.

Quote
As a young man just reaching adulthood and having scraped and saved enough money to pay for a rifle, it is especially doubtful that you had seen a rifle from Berks County, Pa. or even from another area in Georgia unless a new man in your area had just relocated from there.

My family was pretty well off up until the unpleasantness in the 1860s. I would have had the money for a best quality rifle as well as likely to have done some traveling.

Offline Z. Buck

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Re: Styling question
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2010, 11:13:35 PM »
i could be wrong but i suspect very very few people had rifles built for them, but just went and picked p what was there, i think custom built guns (whether custom "fitted" or built and decorated to spec) may have been slightly more common back then than today, but not much more so. as far as no one turning down work, that might be true, but often the payout isnt a high enough margin to dramatically change a pattern. i.e. the further outside the lines of the norm you are the steeper the price increase, because a gun that would be simple for a berks stocker to put together would take a smith from two counties over twice as long. as far as not turning down jobs, havent you ever had a garage tell you for "this" problem you would be better off price wise and talent wise at some other (specific) garage? (if not you need a new mechanic) simple fact is cars are probably the closest parallel to guns of the era, you dont go to a body shop to have your engine rebuilt, you dont go to the ford dealer to fix your suburu. just my thoughts, Zack
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Styling question
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2010, 11:14:13 PM »
Dan, a couple of your premises seem to be going at cross purposes.

1) A customer wanting a rifle made like those made by gunsmith A would go to a local gunsmith ("gunsmith B") and request that he make a rifle like gunsmith A makes.  Gunsmith B would gladly do it, because nobody turns down business.

2) A customer wanting a rifle like the ones made by gunsmith A would travel to gunsmith A's shop to get a rifle in the style of gunsmith A.

It's all speculation anyhow! ;D

Sure its speculation. There is no one answer.
Sure most guns were made for the local trade. But to say they ALL were is as silly as saying all were made for "export" to other area.
There are all sorts of scenarios that are possible and in fact likely true at SOME LEVEL.

The guy traveling from Richmond, VA to St Louis was Dr James Lawrence Jones.
This was detailed by Shumway in the August 1998 Muzzle Blasts. He did this BEFORE starting medical school.
Did he REALLY go to St Louis to BUY the rifle? Or did he visit St Louis and decided to buy one while he was there? We are not going to find out. The history states he traveled to St Louis to buy the rifle, so its not refutable no matter how unlikely it might seem. The rifle was apparently in the same family for generations being sold to a collector by the original owners great, great grandson.
The rifle is a variant J&S 1/2 stock, it has a short forend, one key, German Silver rod pipes fore end cap etc and a checkered wrist. Its fairly certain it was not something that was "on the shelf" at least based on other surviving Hawken "mountain rifles".
Add to this that there are surviving J&S Hawken marked rifles, for example, in several styles, local "squirrel rifles", Kentucky rifles and full and 1/2 stock "Mountain Rifles".

We also have to recognize that not everyone who bought a rifle was only going to use it to shoot hogs and beeves for butcher. Not everyone that bought a gun was only buying it for militia use. Not everyone with an opinion about rifles was some rich planters son. Then as now some people were more discriminating than others. Some competed in rifle matches some made money at it and this had little to do with how much land someone did or did not own. Think Alvin York hardly rich but he apparently knew how to shoot and apparently had an ACCURATE RIFLE.
There have always been gun owners and riflemen they are not the same and do not have the same requirements in firearms. If the local gunsmith did blacksmith quality rifles and the accuracy was thought to be hit or miss a discriminating customer might walk or ride 20-50 miles or more to get what he wanted. OR EVEN ORDER IT and have it shipped to someplace like Kentucky.
So did Simon Kenton, as reported, order a rifle from PA just on a lark or did he have information that this maker was someone to contact with the order. Do we even have enough details to make such a decision? I don't. But would someone order a rifle sight unseen unless he had SOME inkling that the maker was reputable? And how did he find out? Personal visit? Saw one of the rifles in Kentucky?
 
My problem with all this it that people thinking gunsmiths were only capable of making one style rifle or that they would turn away cash customers who came to them and might want something different. OR that people lacked the motivation to go to the trouble to get what they REALLY wanted.
Yes there were people who never traveled out of the county they were born in and others that traveled to the ends of the earth. The only difference is that it TOOK LONGER in 1770 than in 1970.
The Fondersmith mentioned above being restocked is a wonderful example. If the owner was traveling and broke his rifle would he wait to have it stocked or would he trade in the parts and get a rifle that the smith might have in stock? I would likely have done this. Would the owner perhaps living next door to Schreyer take it to the maker with the simple instruction of "fix it"? Schreyer took an unserviceable rifle and made a "new" rifle. Surely done countless times. I would see this rifle as a treasure but apparently the owner considered it a parallel to a restocked and reblued Winchester since it was not "original". Would this impact the value? Would this make people resistant to the possibility of restocks in their collection.

The possibilities are ENDLESS.
Now even HAD the owner wanted it just like the broken stock there is a chance it would still have hints of being done by Schreyer, moulding perhaps and how the work was done.  Carving patterns.  Or Schreyer could have told him to go someplace else. But I doubt it.
Every time I see a photo of a rifle with a brass plate set in the barrel for the signature I wonder whose name was removed to install the new name.
Would Schreyer have an ethical aversion for copying another's work? Maybe he would not consider is GOOD enough and there was no way he would do this kind to work? WE DON'T KNOW.
Rifle barrels were very expensive and a good rifle barrel or even one with a bend in it was not a throw away item. A good lock, rifle barrel and hardware could save a gunsmith a lot of time in making, filing and polishing parts. This made the broken rifle valuable, the finished hardware could be more valuable than the rough castings.
I was talking to Reeves Goerhring about a Dickert buttplate recently. He told me of a Virginia rifle from which he had a chance to make copies of the hardware. He told the owner not to remove the BP since it was identical to a Dickert he had. So was this a common pattern, was it carried off to other areas by journeymen? Was some foundry casting them and selling them to gunsmiths in PA and VA? Was the buttplate in the VA rifle from a Dickert originally or visa-versa?

There are endless possibilities for discussion and/or disagreement.
Dan
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Offline bgf

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Re: Styling question
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2010, 12:44:05 AM »

Too fantastic is my first reaction.  A young man with enough money and status to go request something like the Gamecock rifle is not going to be riding around in brush,

3 words. Cracker cow hunters. Them's my people. Fortunes were made riding around in the brush rounding up Spanish cattle.

Quote
As a young man just reaching adulthood and having scraped and saved enough money to pay for a rifle, it is especially doubtful that you had seen a rifle from Berks County, Pa. or even from another area in Georgia unless a new man in your area had just relocated from there.

Now you are starting to add some detail, which is good.  If you can connect all the elements you want historically and/or theoretically in a believable fashion, it will improve your chances at being happy with and proud of the outcome.  A Gamecock like rifle is either a long-term project for you to build or a very expensive one to commission, so I would suggest you go through this type of argument with yourself and everybody else until you have either convinced yourself and at least some people that the rifle as you currently conceive it is credible in most details or have modified it in such a way that it is.  Even in the realm of fantasy, there are fantasies that are believable, and those that aren't, with the the former seeming to be both more preferable and more enduring.

My family was pretty well off up until the unpleasantness in the 1860s. I would have had the money for a best quality rifle as well as likely to have done some traveling.