L&R Manton sparking problems

[Birddog6]

Their bottom line would sure suffer, except that chambers will not make a left hand in the Ketland.

Guys like me will continue to use and tweek the L&R as its the only left hand game in town as well as the only option for a double.

And guys like me will not build a rifle or a double that requires one of their lock now.  I have had 6 of their locks in the past 8 years & every single one of them was a total PITA to get to function properly & reliably.  When you can send the lock to the guy that built it for years (LC Rice) and he can make it work    there is no excuse for the currect manufacturer not to make them better.  And the disappointing thing is when you return a lock to them, what you get back is no better than what you sent in.          But on the other hand, maybe I am just to picky ?  or maybe I am just spoiled with quality of Chambers locks.......

[Dphariss]

Here's the photo of an old and new Manton. The old one's on top and works great, the new one on the bottom is useless. Notice the angle the hammer is to the pan. The top screw that holds the bridle is drilled lower on the new lock and the second bridle screw is also drilled much lower. Check out the angle of the stirrup too.  Everything is different. I sent one lock back and they replaced it with this one. 
Bill

If it will not put the link below the lock plate I would file the stop on the cock to let the cock get closer to the pan. Looks to me like they changed the cocks. The lower stirrup is actually in better position than the upper. But this is probably due to a change in the locator pin for the spring or the spring is slightly different.
Will have to go out and assemble the one I have and see how it looks I guess.
But not tonight.
Dan

[Dennis Glazener]

Update on the %$#@*&^!!  Manton flintlock. Yesterday I pulled the frizzen off the lock, found a nice little General Foods International Mocha can and put about an inch of sand in the bottom. Then the frizzen and filled the rest of the can with sand (from an old bag of play sand I had, real fine grained).

I put the can/sand/frizzen in the oven cranked the temperature up to 375 and baked it for a little over an hour AFTER the oven reached the 375 degree temperature. Was going to use my wife's meat thermometer to make sure the temperature setting was correct on the stove but found it does not go beyond 190 degree's so this is by the electric ranges thermostat.

I hate to report this but trying it manually, no powder in the pan it still casts very few sparks and doesn't look like it was improved from what it was  I will take it out again as soon as I can but I am not optimistic on it firing any better than it did the last time.

BTW I compared it to billd's 2 photos and it matches the second photo. Someone mentioned filing the cock stop, anyone else think this would help?

Dennis
 

[jerrywh]

Dennis.
  Send that thing to me. All I want is the postage both ways.

[Tom Cooper]

Jerry,
If he sends you that lock, I would like very much to see a series of pictures and a write up about what you did. Unless you just go the case harden route as you have covered that extensivley on the old board, and I thank you for.

[billd]

I'm sending photos of mine to L&R. I'll post the reply when I get it. 

I would also like to see photos of what Jerry does to Dennis's lock.

Thanks,
Bill

[Dennis Glazener]

Dennis.
  Send that thing to me. All I want is the postage both ways.

Jerry that is a great offer and I may take you up on it but I might have stumbled into what was causing the problem or at least part of it.

While changing the flint on the lock I noticed a bright spot on the tip of the upper jaw of the cock. Maybe caused by the tip of the jaw riding down the face of the frizzen. If it was then it may be keeping the flint from making full contact with the frizzen. I filed a little off the tip and snapped it a couple of times and it seems to be sparking decently. I had a dinner to go to and couldn't fool with it anymore tonight. Tomorrow I will make sure I took enough off the upper jaw and will see if that cures the problem.
Dennis

[jerrywh]

Hopefully it's fixed but I am serious about fixing it. I usually balance the springs. heat treat the frizzen and correct any abnormalities with the geometry. there are dozens of things tha tcan be wrong with a flint lock. I am a firm believer that one must build several from scratch before he really understand them compelely.  That's why guys like Gary Brumsfield have them figured out. 

[Dennis Glazener]

I just finished grinding more off the upper jaw. I probably have removed close to .200" and really could stand to take more off. When I cycle by hand the upper jaw tip still is extremely close to the frizzen face. After I ground off the jaw the lock still didn't spark like I would expect it to so back in the little mocha box filled with play sand. This time I cranked the temperature up another 25 degrees to 400. Left it there for an hour after the oven showed it to be pre-heated to that setting. Pulled it out and put it back in the lock with the same flint. This time it flashed the pan 10 out of 10 tries I now pronounce the lock dependable!

Evidently I had two problems, first the frizzen was too hard and second was the very tip of the top jaw was striking the frizzen and not allowing the flint to make solid contact with the frizzen. I would think using longer flints would keep the jaws from contacting but if they are long enough to contact the frizze before the jaw tip does the flint will not allow the frizzen to close the pan cover on half cock.

Thanks to all the tips and hopefully others will be able to get their Mantons to spark as good as mine does now.
Dennis

[jerrywh]

I have one simular to that now. I have to pick out flints that are just the right length. Some day when I get time I plan to tig a little on the tip  of the sear. That will fix it. 

[California Kid]

This has been an interesting thread to me as I was thinking of using one of these locks on a pistol.
It almost seems that making a lock would be less trouble, but it would be easier to tweak already cast parts.  L&R must have gone to sh"t, as their locks used to be ok. What would the alternative be?

[jerrywh]

I really like L&R locks. They just need a little adjustment usually. What I dislike the most about them is that tiny little fly. If the bridle is just a little too tall the fly can fall out at times. I Am in love with the English fly. But I have never seen one on an American made flintlock. The fly has a eyelet on it that slips over the tumbler axle. They are much stronger and impossible to fall out.

[California Kid]

Jerry, so you think the Manton lock is a worthwhile pursuit? Certainly would be easier than making an entire lock. Just seems if you buy a lock ready to go it should be ready to use, maybe Jim Chambers should
think about a small later English lock.

[Larry Pletcher]

I wrote an article for MuzzlaBlasts in 1990 in which I timed an L&R Manton and Durs Egg lock.  It was the first of three articles on lock timing I did.  It is near the bottom in the "Featured Article" column.  You can also use the following link:

http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/flintlock-timing.php

I realize that a lot can happen in production since I wrote the article, but I felt at the time that both locks performed well.  One of the locks had a bevel preference, but I liked them both.   I don't think I mentioned it in the article, but the priming powder was Goex ffffg.   I think it might have been the only choice in 1990.

Of interest in the article are three photos taken .011, .013, .015 seconds after the sear tripped.   You can see where the flint is on it's way down the frizzen.  The flash was controlled by a computer, but still old technology.

Regards,
Pletch

[Birddog6]

In 1990 the locks were being built correctly & they were a good lock.....       back then...........
And they are a fast lock, if that is any concession. Fast doesn't help much if the quality & performance is not there.   

[jerrywh]

Jim chambers and other quality lock makers have spoiled the makers of today. In my opinion no lock on the market today is ready to go as is. Jim's locks are the closes that I know of but A lock should be polished and case hardened before it is ready to go.  None of them are. Except Pedersoli but his needs a lot of tweeking also.  Things were so tough when I started that I feel lucky just to get all the castings.  My dream lock would be a jim chambers delux with a stirup type mainspring connection and a roller frizzen. I'm going to convert one for my personal long rifle.
  In my lifetime there were two locks I could not get to spark very well at all. The frizzens has some chrome or something in the alloy. They just wouldn't spark no matter what. I made new frizzens out of 1075 and then case hardened and tempered them. One was a very early thompson canter.

[Dphariss]

I just finished grinding more off the upper jaw. I probably have removed close to .200" and really could stand to take more off. When I cycle by hand the upper jaw tip still is extremely close to the frizzen face. After I ground off the jaw the lock still didn't spark like I would expect it to so back in the little mocha box filled with play sand. This time I cranked the temperature up another 25 degrees to 400. Left it there for an hour after the oven showed it to be pre-heated to that setting. Pulled it out and put it back in the lock with the same flint. This time it flashed the pan 10 out of 10 tries I now pronounce the lock dependable!

Evidently I had two problems, first the frizzen was too hard and second was the very tip of the top jaw was striking the frizzen and not allowing the flint to make solid contact with the frizzen. I would think using longer flints would keep the jaws from contacting but if they are long enough to contact the frizze before the jaw tip does the flint will not allow the frizzen to close the pan cover on half cock.

Thanks to all the tips and hopefully others will be able to get their Mantons to spark as good as mine does now.
Dennis