HC Rivetting as Discussed in Trigger Guard Post

[Rasch Chronicles]

Hello Fellows!

I was just reading the Trigger Guard post and instead of jacking the thread I thought I might start another one.

What would the HC method of rivetting entail?

Bending and forming the individual pieces is pretty straight forward, assuming you have a modicum of artistic talent. (I don't, but that's not the point.)

What I am curious about is the method and materials used.

Would someone ellucidate, expostulate, corroberate and discombobulate the process please?

Thanks Fellows!
It's Been a Long Road
Albert A Rasch

[Dave B]

I will give this a go.  some would use a small finishing nail as the rivet and having drilled both surfaces and counter sinking the holes pean the rivet down file off the excess and your done. parts are easier to rivet if they are laid together with the end piece left un bent till after it is riveted to the  under side of the scrolled section. Jack didn't recommend doing it that way he brazed his extension as a T weld in to the base of the up turned  scroll section. I have a drawing I did while I was at Jacks soaking up the various bits shared.


Of the three portions shown, the one in the middle is the flat tracing of the metal patern ready to cold forge. the metal is pounded out to make a tapered profile as indicated. If you were to join the tail piece with a rivet you would have to make the extenion bent to match the rail section then attach it with the rivet and bend it to match the profile of the welded piece. Does that make sense?

[Dave B]

good or bad this was how Jack showed me how he made them. He told me that he really didnt like building any thing but the tennessee rifles and this was the way he did it. He also talked about the use of plastic surran wrap around the barrel and bedding the whole length with several tubes of that two part epoxy for the purpose sold by track as well as Brownells cant remember what its called but he got it by the case. one tube is black compoud and the other a brown. I bedded a rifle with it once thinking one layer of turtle wax would work as a parting agent. boy was I mistaken I had to shove a lentgh of cold rolled forged in to a knife edge taper from the muzzle end half way down the barrel channel and heat the barrel before the (&$*%(  epoxy would let go of the barrel.

[Acer Saccharum]

Many jaeger guards were brazed together. I would think that you could rivet the parts together, then braze the assembly; save your final shaping and finishing for after the brazing.
Tom

[Dave B]

I was just looking athe original drawing and thnking that you could do a stud secion on the end piece that pireced through the grip rail and peened over then brazed or silver solderd or not at all if it were a sqared stud.

[Rasch Chronicles]

And come to find out that riveting is with one "T" not two...

Anyhow, I was thinking some more on the subject, and I got to wondering if the gunsmiths of yore used a special stake and clincher/set for the procedure. My guess is that if you were smithing in the late 18th century, you worked in one style, and your tools and equipment likely reflected that. There was likely a bottom stake that fit the style of rivet, and then a top set to bang it to shape.

This begets even more questions. did they heat the whole thing at once, then peen the rivet? Or was the rivet heated and somehow threaded into the holes? Or was it all cold worked as Dave mentioned? I'm thinking old school style here, because you could just take a Little Torch to it and heat the cold rivet in place... and then peen it!

When I get home I am going to have to experiment with this... and that of course will get me to make the tooling required. And all sorts of other fun things that I needed an excuse to get into!

Best Regards,
 The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles™
Scouting for Hogs, Chronicles Style!

[G-Man]

Most multi-piece iron mounts on Appalachian guns were riveted and brazed - I have been told by some of you blacksmith types that the rivets are there primarily just to hold the parts in place while brazing.  Some pieces were brazed without rivets - you often see this with the little sliver that forms the back of the guard bow on pieces where the grip rail and rest of the bow were forged from one piece. 

There are always exceptions - some iron mounted guns have forged mounts with no visible brazing lines or rivets and look to actually have been forge welded.  know of at least one 1790s era Virginia gun with a buttplate like this and think some of the Gillespie guards look to posisbly be forge welded as well, if I recall some of my conversations with Dennis. 

I have seen a number of contemporary guns done with silver soldering instead of brazing and the joint seems to be very strong.

Guy

[Dennis Glazener]

Here are some photos of the forged trigger guard on my Mathew Gillespie rifle. This may help give you an idea of how they were made. I see no evidence of a rivet in the guard.

The little lip/groove filed in the front of the trigger bow, where it joins the forward return, is to hold the front of the trigger plate in its mortise.

[bgf]

Dennis,
I'm really hesitant to say it, but there is what looks like a rivet in the first picture -- right in the middle of the curve of the spike where the grip-rail joins the rear section; may be just a trick of the photo?  I only mention it because often photos show things that you can't see in "real life".  The work on that is very nice -- never saw a Gillespie that close.

I think Guy is right, the rivet mostly holds pieces together for brazing or welding, and gets worked just like the rest once the pieces are joined.  Even if you just solder after the rivet, the joint is very strong, as the rivet supports the solder and the solder tacks the rivet in place if it flows correctly.   I'm wondering if my coathanger rivets are HC -- they seem to work even better than finishing nails ?

[Dennis Glazener]

I'm really hesitant to say it, but there is what looks like a rivet in the first picture -- right in the middle of the curve of the spike where the grip-rail joins the rear section; may be just a trick of the photo?  I only mention it because often photos show things that you can't see in "real life".  The work on that is very nice -- never saw a Gillespie that close.

Sure looks like it in the photo. I took the rifle down and looked at it close here in office and I can not see what is showing in the photo. Its got my curiosity up, will take it out in the sunshine tomorrow and look at it.
Dennis

[bgf]

Thanks, Dennis.  I went to look at the one I'm working on, and it is hard if not impossible to see the rivets where the file work is well under way, and I know where they are, but I bet a picture would show every one of them.  I've taken to photographing works in progress close up, just to find the flaws (not hard in my case)  -- next time I'll check for the rivets as well:).

[Rasch Chronicles]

Fellows,

I'm sure you all realize by now what a great asset we have here, with ALR as the conduit for everyone to analyze questions, and share ideas that help evolve our understanding of almost anything we can come up with!

I for one appreciate the constant reparte' and mulling of ideas around that occurs everyday, on different subjects, on many threads!

Having said that, I am going to go and ask about Brazing, Old School Style!

Best Regards,
Albert “Afghanus” Rasch
The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles™
Hunting Late Season Whitetails!