How many of the old masters did their own engraving

[bama]

Did they all do their own engraving? Did an aprentice do it? Was it sent out to a Silversmith in town? Any or all of these?

Having to learn what is required to build a rifle is a pretty big challenge but to add to this the art of engraving then you have just multiplied the difficulty 3 fold.

I have been struggleling with trying to learn engraving to enhance my rifles. I have a very high reguard for those that can build a fine rifle and then do a fine job of engraving it. It takes a lot of work to become proficient at one much less both. I have seen many fine rifles built today that the work was done by more than one artist. I think in some cases this may have been done on the originals also. I am not saying that that they all were but some of the really finely engraved originals I wonder if they were shoped out to be engraved.

[flintriflesmith]

Bama,
In the rifles I really like I can often see the same hand and stylistic execution in the engraving and the carving. To me that has indicated it was likely a maker doing both in his own shop.

Not to mention that VERY few small towns had specialists like silversmiths. In fact I recently posted a 1748 ad from NY where a gunsmith was advertising that he engraved coats of arms on silver for his customers.

Gary

[HIB]

Jim, You truly post an interesting question. I can only speak for the three Womelsdorf gunsmiths who worked in the last 25 years of the 18th century and into the first 25 years of the 19th century. I am referring to John Bonewitz, Leonard Reedy and Andrew Fichthorn specifically. After extensive study I have determined that each of the above did in fact engrave their own work. Bonewitz and Reedy were the toughest to differentiate while Fichthorn was distinctly obvious.

In addition, while this study was being conducted a rifle signed C. Beck came to light that had beautiful engraving on the patch box. This example was so close to an identical rifle signed J.P.Beck that our conclusion was J.P. helped out with the finished product of his [son,nephew,cousin]'s work. The conclusion was 100%.

The post above this one brings into perspective the remote areas in which the earlier gun smiths worked. In earlier times the frontier did not allow for a guild type arrangement. So, the shared hand most likely evolved over time and probably can be identified when examining rifles built closer to 1800 or 1810

The early Womelsdorf craftsman had a tremendous pride [considered a sin] in their product. Buying out their work didn't fit the picture.

I encourage you to continue to find various examples of one hand and then several. Very important endeavor.   Regards, HIB

[James]

I too have wondered about this and am also curious what role the apprentices had in the shops.

[Majorjoel]

An interesting question. John Shell of Dauphin Co. had a very distinctive engraving style. On many of his rifles it is the icing on the cake so to speak regarding the artistic merits of his work. In Kindig's book "Thoughts On The Kentucky Rifle In It's Golden Age" on page 277 there is a picture of a longrifle made by Martin Shell #117. There, beyond a shadow of a doubt in my mind, shows the engraving work of young John the apprentice son working on his father's rifle. I suppose that if one studies very closely the engraving work of a particular maker, you are bound to learn the answer to bama's question. One rifle at a time .

[Swampwalker]

HIB, that's very intersting information - I have noted that C. Beck's guns often but not always lack engraving.  Those that are engraved are usually nicely engraved. 
Many gunsmiths did work in larger towns such as Phily and Lancaster where there likely were specialist engravers.  Definitely an intersting question, but hard to answer!

[JTR]

I agree, and think that the great majority, even stretching that to almost all, did their own engraving.
If you take into account that some were fine engravers, and some were really poor engravers, and you see that quality of engraving on several different guns by the same maker, you pretty much have to accept that the maker did the engraving.
And when you get into the later makers, some like Nicolas Hawk used their engraving ability as the primary source of emblishment on his guns!
John

[Blacksmoke]

From my observation of old longrifles I think it was a "mixed bag"- some did while others did not and then there were some that did engrave their own work at times and "farming it out at other times.  I think it depended on their local and who was available to do the engraving where they were situated.  Like  Gary said: " It was ,most likely, a maker doing both in his own shop".  Because of the lack of professional engravers in a particular area.     Anyway that's how I see it -  Hugh Toenjes

[Levy]

I've noticed that a number of New England manufactured guns have what looks like engraving by the same hand, but the makers of the guns vary.  The engraving style seems to be very fine and tight.  Either they outsourced their engraving or they were all trained the same.  I understand that in that area there were also clock makers who might have done some of the engraving.  I'm no expert, this is just my observation.

James Levy

[smart dog]

Hi,
Of course everyone is focused on early American makers.  In Europe, division of labor was the norm for centuries.  Gunmakers farmed their work out to specialized engravers, silversmiths, and goldsmiths.  Provincial makers might engrave their work but often sent it on to the cities when really high-end decoration was ordered.  I am sure that in bigger American cities such as Philadelphia, New York, Boston, and Charlestown some decorative work was farmed, but what choices would a rural gunsmith have?

dave

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

There are a couple of good rifles by Rupp that have inlays designed and engraved by Jacob Kuntz, at least to my eye.  But for the most part, to answer the question, I'd say that almost all gun makers engraved their own rifles and guns.

[paxtonboy]

what choices would a rural gunsmith have?
dave

What about journeymen?   Is there the possibility of a journeyman engraver? 

[Blacksmoke]

Paxtonboy:  The "journeymen" engraver would be associated with a larger shop where there were a number of workman involved - at least 4 or more and this type of shop could do more of an "assembly line" type of operation with the journeymen engraver mostly doing  the engraving.   Hugh Toenjes

[Jim Kibler]

In regard to Dave's mention of European gunmaking and engraving, an interesting read for anyone having Hayward's "The Art of the Gunmaker" is the correspondence between Tessin and Constrom.  These letters detail the purchase of a pair of Paris made pistols as a gift for King Charles XI of Sweeden.  In particular they make mention of using an "in house" engraver rather than farming it out to a more skilled outside engraver due to cost constraints.  This alone isn't to remarkable, but as a whole the entire letters are quite interesting.  In particular the degree to which the customer detailed the pistols design and decoration is quite suprising. 

[bama]

I do not have a fine collection of original guns to look that closely at and I thank those that have commented that surely have bettter access to some fine arms.

Again I am no knocking our early makers. I have just come to the realization of how difficult it is to be a fine builder and a fine engraver at the same time.

I truely belive that most of the early builders did both but on some that are so expertly engraved I just wondered if there was any evidence that someone other than the builder did the engraving. Even if there might be evidence I do not think that it would devalue the arm on the contary if the was engraving done by one of the great engravers of the period then I think the value of the arm would go up.

Does any one care to possibly post pictures of possible examples.

[whitebear]

packstonboy and HIB welcome to the forum!