Found some old flint pistols, any ideas what I have here?

[Chris Evrard]

Hi All,

I was a member here when I was building my first longrifle (must've been 10 years ago) but couldn't find or remember my old username so I re-registered and here I am.

Anyhow, I found two old flint pistols at an estate sale several years back, and I've always been curious about them. To me the locks and the barrells look to be original period pieces, but the stocks look like they were done in some back alley stall in Pakistan.

Both the locks and barrells are different on each gun. The engraving on the barrells goes from breech to muzzle. The locks are engraved extensively to include the frizzen, pan, cock and faceplates. The second one has some gold (or gold appearing) inlay on the cock retention screw and the pan.

My guess (and it is only a guess) is that these guys started out life as pistols and were turned into decorative items for tourists to buy in some foreign country. Maybe?? Maybe not??

This is the first one:











And this is the second one:



Thanks for any thoughts!

Chris E.

[smylee grouch]

I had an old guy show me something very simmiler that he brought back from nort africa after WW 2.

[Collector]

Locks appear to be German and barrels may be Italian (?.)  Gunsmithing firms, especially those in Germany made firearms that were specifically designed to appeal to different 'trading' partners, i.e., Transcaucasus/Transcaucsia (Turkey/Russia/Black Sea) and the Middle East.  Some of the 'trade' pistols built for the ME, have very beautiful raised carving- go figure.  They simply built what sold and in that part of the world, that's what those buyers wanted... and expected.  

They weren't there to tell them they had terrible taste or that they couldn't understand why they wanted this or that done a certain way... they were there to take their money.  It's a simple business construct that's been around for quite a while.  Yours look like they are original and made for the Transcaucasia regions.

The tourist trade stuff is much 'chinzy-er,' especially the locks.

Good luck!!

[JV Puleo]

I'd say those are two pretty good pistols, quite probably European made, for the Levant or Turkish market. They are far better than the usual tourist junk people are always posting photos of.... The banana lock form held on much longer in southern Europe and the east than it did in Western Europe so, despite the overall appearance, I'd guess last quarter of the 18th century-first quarter of the 19th... its very difficult to tell unless you are a real specialist. There are specialists, but they are few and far between in the US. If I had to guess, I'd say the locks and barrels are Italian. There is nearly nothing in print on this subject... although there is a book in the works on a major collection of eastern arms that includes a selection on pistols.

[Chris Evrard]

Thank you all for your thoughts.

After I got these pistols I put them up on a shelf and really haven't handled or looked at them much since. Yesterday after taking the pictures I started scrutinizing them and now I remember why I thought the stocks were not original, or had been embelished at a later date.

-Both pistols have the remnants of inletting for a ramrod thimble. One still has a partial ramrod groove and inletting where a nosecap would have been.
-Both pistols have remnants of inletting where a trigger guard may have been. In fact one has a repair where a piece of wood was added just in front of the trigger. I assume this was to fill a hole so the imbelishment could be added there.
-One of the balls on the pistol butts is held on by a modern nail. Obviously the original fastener was lost at some point in its past. The other is held on with a screw, but the screw doesn't appear to be the same age of the pistols. Not a smoking gun (pun intended) of course, as it could have been lost and replaced by the other. Just an observation.

Also, the wire inlay was likely done by the same person, or at least at the same time. Why then would the pistols be different? If they were being newly manufactured with the wire inlay an original feature, wouldn't the pistols likely be the same, or closely related? They are so differen't.

[Collector]

Most of these were constructed to be used from atop a horse and/or camel and though they have ramrod channels and/or thimbles, a decorative 'sleeve,' typically, was formed over the barrel and forearm that did nothing more than 'simulate' these elements/features.  The real ramrod would be stuck into a belt or sash.

These were trade items, not commissioned/presentation pieces.  I'm sure that they were constructed along basic patterns and may even have used a selection of fittings/furniture, deliberately designed for that particular market. 

But, if there is one thing that you can probably count on, amongst this type of firearm, it is 'variation.'   The Industrial Revolution, in firearms manufacture, was still a few years off.

They are probably lucky just to have made it this far without being totally destroyed and/or sold for scrap.  Throw some Howard's Feed-n-Wax (close counts) on them and just enjoy them, as you found them. 

Good luck!