Correct Method for Cleaning an Antique Lock?

[Gunnermike]

Purchased a fine European lock on gunbreaker.com a couple of weeks ago.  When I saw it listed 'I jumped on it like a fat lady at Walmart spotting a half-eaten moon pie on the floor'.  Err...I mean, I used the Buy It Now option. 

This is what it looks like:  http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=211895073
I have been soaking it in clean motor oil.  Should I use something else, like kerosene or .  I don't want to harm the springs.  Lots of crud has loosened up from soaking in the oil and using fine steel wool & a brass bristle brush have cleaned off the years of build up.

You'll note some bonehead snapped the hammer and thus it has come the me and my land of broken toys collection.  Anybody have a suggestion. (I don't have an ultrasonic cleaner either.)

Thanks, Mike

[Jim Kibler]

So you're the one who got this!  So what do you think it is?  Where and when do you think it was made?  I would do little in the way of cleaning.  Perhaps just some solvent such as mineral spirits to get rid of heavy grease and oil.  Oil again and be done with it.  

[Gunnermike]

Jim, 

Yeah, I was the one who struck while the iron was hot; a fool & his money are soon parted, et cetera, et cetera.

I was hoping one of the more learned folks here would chime in and identify the lock.  But from perusing the The Rifle Shoppe catalog, it has a profile very similar to the Prussian Officers Fusil #720, but the internals are much more refined.  No markings that I can see yet.  The springs are massive!  I'm guessing it was once on a fine pistol.

Seems to have been in the half-cocked position for some time.  The oil bath is starting to loosen the rust & dried crud.  The crud is so hard that I don't think mineral spirits would touch it, but will give it a try later this week.  Will post photos when it is cleaner.  Mike

[JCKelly]

May I suggest using only some copper alloy, such as the brass brush you now have, to scrape off the rust? One may, or could, find bronze wool at grocery store or hardware, otherwise some piece of copper or brass can  remove the rust without scratching that old iron.

For loosening rusted joints I find Kroil works better than, say WD-40.
Hey, Kroil is expensive, hard to find & has serious health warnings--Its gotta be good! 

[Dphariss]

I would have soaked it in diesel fuel to clean it. Its a lot cheaper than packaged oils and solvents.
I wonder how a fuel system cleaner like Sea Foam or Exxons stuff would work in removing gunk.

If you intend to use the lock I would not be excessively concerned with the finish.
If you don't intend to use it an extensive clean up is not needed.

Dan

[Dave B]

All of the above is good advice. The suggestion about using brass is a good one when it comes to the cleaning of metal with rust. The quick way to make a scraper is to smash the neck section of a 30-06 casing  flat this in turn can be touched up with a file to match a contour or left as is. You can take the rust off a blued barrel and not remove the blue only the rust with this little scraper. I use them to remove the clogging from my files teeth. I have had several original locks with blind screw holes and you want to take every precaution when removing these screws. You can twist them off in a heart beat if you are not careful. I soaked mine in a baggie with WD-40 for a month or more. I use only screw drivers that fit the slot perfectly. I was given a tip from a savy gun smith to buy the cheap screw drivers from harbor freight and grind them every time you need to have one to fit perfectly it really saves on buggered screw heads. The other tip is to take a square graver the width of the screw slot and clean out the groove clear to the base of the notch. Some of the screws have more of a V than a square bottom so be careful but it helps to have the tip of the driver in to the slot all the way. Lastly if you find you still are not able to break loose a screw put the plate in Bondo after giving it a wipe down with oil on to a wood block. Take a section of perfectly fit square shanked screw driver  you've cut off the handle into the chuck. Placing the offending screw and plate into a vice secured to the table under the spindle, press the blade into the slot firmly and taking a wrench on the shank of the driver remove the screw. This is the big gun for screw removal but I have also heard of using a section of drill rod heated red hot to be placed on the head of the screw then cooling it down and repeating. The thermal shocking can help the loosening of the stubborn screws. If all you are going to be doing with the lock is using it as a study piece then complete disassembly is not required just good scrubbing with a brass brush and wipe down is all that you need to do. If you are wanting to reproduce the lock then  removal is required. I have a nice lock that I removed all but one screw from and I didn't want to chance twisting off the head and let it be. It was the screw that held the frizzen spring in place from the inside of the lock plate. It is so fused in place and the slot is so shallow it wouldn't survive the process. Being that its only a study piece I opted to leave it be.

[Artificer]

Gunnermike,

Congratulations!! 

DaveB did such an excellent job in his last post and others have also mentioned great things. 

While still on active duty, I had access to a small sonic cleaner with a pan about the size of a bread pan.  I took the cleaning solution out and immersed an even more rusty lock in Kroil's.  Then I let it run for a week.  All the screws came out just the way they were supposed to when using correctly fitting screwdrivers.  I am no mechanical engineer, but I guessed the sonic vibrations helped loosen up the rust.
Gus

[Blacksmoke]

Also just a LITTLE heat -only 200 degrees will help in removing frozen screws.  Some years ago a fellow brought in an original Northwest Trade gun that had been all but destroyed by a back yard hack.   And yes he had used a hacksaw to clean out the screw slots so he could get a screwdriver in them.  He twisted each one off in the lock.   I had to extract each broken screw and make new ones.  I can't begin to tell what he did to the rest of the gun - my blood pressure will go out of control!!    Anyway the story has a happy ending as the gun is in a museum today.   Hugh Toenjes

[Jim Kibler]

My guess would be a Germanic origin to this lock and a date of somewhere around 1700-1725.  The basic framework of the lock seems to be of French design from around 1685-1700 but there are differences as well.  The fizzen spring with huge finial is one.  The band around the frizzen stop is a little unusual as well.  Finally the internals are not nearly as refined as one would expect on French or other academic work.  The basic designs established by the French were spread throughout Europe and England and they were of course modified to some degree.  This lock seems to have a Germanic flavor to me so that's my guess. I'd guess 1700 -1725 since out of taste designs in more metropolitan areas tended to hang on in more rural areas. 

[Rasch Chronicles]

GUNBROKER???

What is this  madness? An eBay for gun lovers?

I just got through a serious bout with eBay, see: ebay is the Devil! and now there is Gunbroker?

My kids have always said I am way behind the times... Made fun of Dad's inability to grasp things technological...

WAHOOOOO!!!

See you guys later!!!! There goes the inheritance for those ungrateful kids!!!

Your friend,
Albert A Rasch
The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles

[mountainman70]

Albert;there are also the following fyi---gunsamerica.com----gunsinternational.com ,yep a toy store for us.Keep yer powder dry.  Dave

[JTR]

I dunno, to me it looks like a typical round faced pointy tail English lock from around 1780/90s more or less.
Looks like the frizzen has been re-faced, so it was used alot, and the bonehead that broke the cock was probably the guy shooting it in the original gun the lock came in.
I've seen a few original round faced cocks on ebay, etc, so some looking might find you a replacement, otherwise find a reproduction and age it accordingly. Check out the TOW catalog.
That was a good buy at 100 bucks!
John

[Jim Kibler]

I dunno, to me it looks like a typical round faced pointy tail English lock from around 1780/90s more or less.
Looks like the frizzen has been re-faced, so it was used alot, and the bonehead that broke the cock was probably the guy shooting it in the original gun the lock came in.
I've seen a few original round faced cocks on ebay, etc, so some looking might find you a replacement, otherwise find a reproduction and age it accordingly. Check out the TOW catalog.
That was a good buy at 100 bucks!
John

It's certainly no such thing.    Nothing personal, but it seems in general knowlege of European and English work is pretty scarce.   Please don't put a cock on as suggested.  For ideas check out Germanic round faced locks from the late 17th and early 18th centuries.  Also check out the Simonin prints (reprinted in Master French Gunsmiths) for ideas as well.  If your having trouble locating examples for reference, let me know and I might be able to help.

[Gunnermike]

Someone call the fire department, the blaze is gettin' out of control!

There is a very similar lock in the Rifle Shoppe catalog #758 labeled as a German Officers Pistol (pg. 154) which is very close in appearance to this lock.  It is described as made by 'Fromery' in Berlin.  Unfortunately, the photo is small, but the dimensions are almost the same - 5" x 7/8" vs. 5-1/8" x .90" for this lock. 

I agree with Jim, this is a German or northern European lock.  The frizzen has been re-faced.  There is a gun on Track (of the Wolf) that has similar characteristics and the hammer looks like a good one to copy for a replacement.



There is a projection on the pan bridle that I have never seen before also on this lock.

The lock is hardened very well and the surface rust is loosening with brushing with the brass brush and some careful scraping.

Thanks for all the recommendations.  Mike

[Jim Kibler]

While there are some similarities to the lock you showed photos of, I beleive your lock is a fair amount earlier.  Take note of how the lower edge bulges a tad under the frizzen spring.  As the 18th century progressed, the lower lock edge tended to straighten out into more or a uniform arch.  Also of note are the interupted moldings at the lock nose.  I believe Lenk says this feature first showed up in France about 1685.  I'm not certain how long it was commonly used.  As far as the pan bridle goes, it is ocassionally seen in 17th century locks.  Lenk shows at least one.  I would guess it was often left off for aestetic reasons on good French work. 

[B. Hey]

Mike, I have successfully used a product called "EvapoRust" for quite some time. I have to say that I have never used it on a gun/gun parts. I have however used it extensively on Case knives. The rust is totally removed when soaked in the solution and I have noticed no damage to the rusty item whatsoever. Again ... just my experience. Take care .. Bill Hey

[JTR]

I dunno, to me it looks like a typical round faced pointy tail English lock from around 1780/90s more or less.
Looks like the frizzen has been re-faced, so it was used alot, and the bonehead that broke the cock was probably the guy shooting it in the original gun the lock came in.
I've seen a few original round faced cocks on ebay, etc, so some looking might find you a replacement, otherwise find a reproduction and age it accordingly. Check out the TOW catalog.
That was a good buy at 100 bucks!
John

It's certainly no such thing.    Nothing personal, but it seems in general knowlege of European and English work is pretty scarce.   Please don't put a cock on as suggested.  For ideas check out Germanic round faced locks from the late 17th and early 18th centuries.  Also check out the Simonin prints (reprinted in Master French Gunsmiths) for ideas as well.  If your having trouble locating examples for reference, let me know and I might be able to help.

Geeze, whatever!
So did superman pee in your Cheerio's or what???
John

[Jim Kibler]

I dunno, to me it looks like a typical round faced pointy tail English lock from around 1780/90s more or less.
Looks like the frizzen has been re-faced, so it was used alot, and the bonehead that broke the cock was probably the guy shooting it in the original gun the lock came in.
I've seen a few original round faced cocks on ebay, etc, so some looking might find you a replacement, otherwise find a reproduction and age it accordingly. Check out the TOW catalog.
That was a good buy at 100 bucks!
John

It's certainly no such thing.    Nothing personal, but it seems in general knowlege of European and English work is pretty scarce.   Please don't put a cock on as suggested.  For ideas check out Germanic round faced locks from the late 17th and early 18th centuries.  Also check out the Simonin prints (reprinted in Master French Gunsmiths) for ideas as well.  If your having trouble locating examples for reference, let me know and I might be able to help.

Geeze, whatever!
So did superman pee in your Cheerio's or what???
John

Let me put it in a way where you might understand...  Lets say someone shows up with a Shroyer missing a butplate.  After you have taken the time to try to explain what it is, another suggests it actually is a plains rifle and Ebay would be a good place to find a replacement butplate.  How do you reckon you would feel?

With that said, sorry to offend you.  I should be a little more careful with my words sometimes.