hand inletting to machine inletting

[Jim Curlee]

I recently scored an english, double barrel shotgun, made in the 1850s.
I noticed that most of the inletting was done by machine, with a few chisel marks for cleanup. Of course I took it apart!
When did they perfect machine inletting, enough to start manufacturing guns that way?
Was it about the same timeline for the states?
Thanks
Jim

[greybeard]

Hi 65pan,.  If your gun is of fair quality it will be hand inlet and perhaps burnished  ..
In 1850 I doubt they had machines that could do work that fine. If you buy a pre inlet stock today compare it to the inletting on your double you will see the difference.        I doubt they have machines today that can inlet a lock  as nice as the Brits were doing in the 1800s. Perhaps if a laser were involved they might come close???
    Just my wild guess.   Cheers    Bob

[Jim Curlee]

Greybeard;
When I pulled the lock plates, there were 3/8s round marks, like a Forstner bit?
Maybe they were drilling the bulk of the material?
There are no faults in the inletting at all.
Jim

[northmn]

Machine inletting started much earlier than 1850.  In 1819 Thomas Blanchard invented a stock duplicator for the Springfield Armory to produce military arms.  They upgraded Harpers Ferry Armory starting in 1845 with the introduction of 121 new machines.  The site was chosen for the use of water power.  At that time, it was economical to use production methods only for rifles like the military rifles where they wanted lots of duplicates of the same rifle. Eli Whitney was one "inventor" of the milling machine ana had a contract to produce arms for the government.

DP  
  

[Stophel]

The 1850's were the time of the percussion revolver, the Sharps and Volcanic rifles.  They were perfectly capable of doing machine inletting.   

[Jerry V Lape]

Greybeard, CNC machining today is so refined I think you would be hard pressed to determine machine work from hand inletting.  In fact I think you would probably pick the CNC in most cases as the better.  The best work comes from final smoke fitting of parts after the CNC gets everything within 1/1000th or so.  But I haven't seen a longrifle that was ever near that precise.  In  producing guns for a profit no one can afford the labor to do all the inletting and fitting by hand.  Even the finest names in shotguns, like Purdey, H&H, Fabbri, Filli Rizzini, all use CNC and EDM machines to get things close enough they fit as well as the production guns such as we see on the shelves at our local dealers.  Then the handfitting for perfection takes over. 

[greybeard]

So you still need hand fitting if you want it perfect???

[Don Getz]

If the guy that inlets your barrel takes his time, and is extra careful, you can get a perfect inlet.   Of all the barrels that I
have had machine inlet, I never felt a need to try to improve it..........Don

[greybeard]

Yes Don, but there is a big difference between a barrel inlet and a fine british lock like the one pictures at the start if this post. I just can't believe that a machine will duplicate that inlet with those nice crisp sharp corners, but that being said I wll admit that I am very technically chalenged. So far a can't even programe my P C to spell.  Bob

[James]

It is tough to put inflection and personality into computer posts, and I don't have much gun building experience. But I have been around. Machines can be useful tools. But they have no spirit and no passion. I'll take my butchered up fingers, slipped nicks in the wood etc... over machine perfection any day of the week. Plus, machines don't pay taxes. Had a job once where they brought in very expensive machines to sort letters. They were fast and I guess that was the goal. However, with all the hundreds of thousands of letters I ever sorted, I never once ripped one in half. The machine on the other hand apparently had a daily quota for doing so

[Don Getz]

I kind of got off track on my barrel inletting.   I remember when Steve Alexander did a session at the Conner Prairie Workshops.   He had the stock of an english rifle with him, just to demonstrate the inletting.   The lock inlet was so good,
I am still amazed as to how it was done.    Every piece of the internal parts was inlet into the wood, but done perfectly.
I stll don't know how they did it...............Don

[northmn]

I kind of got off track on my barrel inletting.   I remember when Steve Alexander did a session at the Conner Prairie Workshops.   He had the stock of an english rifle with him, just to demonstrate the inletting.   The lock inlet was so good,
I am still amazed as to how it was done.    Every piece of the internal parts was inlet into the wood, but done perfectly.
I stll don't know how they did it...............Don

As I understand it the English would have had an "inletter" so the inletting.  Depending on the company.  Also that individual may have done a few more inletting jobs on the same basic parts than we do.  If they used a machine to rough them in, the final perfect inletting may also be easier


DP

[Dphariss]

The 1850's were the time of the percussion revolver, the Sharps and Volcanic rifles.  They were perfectly capable of doing machine inletting.   

Much better than machine inletting before CNC.
The fit on the Sharps stocks, for example, was so good that very little hand fitting was required.  Yes folks there were surplus original Sharps stock around and I have actully put one on a Shiloh action. Aside from the mod done to the Shiloh (lock position is different and requires "moving" if put into an original stock) it was basically a snap fit everywhere. Modern "pantographed" stocks are always inlet undersized since a pantograph simply will not cut as close as a 1850s inletting machine would. But the inletting machine usually only inlet one part or maybe two. Then the stock was moved to another to inlet another part, at least this is my understanding. But the work was surprisingly precise.

Were the English doing this on shotguns in the 1850s? Honestly I would say I just don't know.
Considering the uproar (riots) that the machine made damascus barrels caused with the barrel forgers? I would not bet on it.
I would defer to someone with more knowledge of the English gun trade of the period.

The better grade guns? No.
Dan

[TPH]

+1 to Chris and Dan's remarks. By the 1840s, the US National Arsenals and many of the military contractors were providing totally interchangeable military firearms - no hand fitting at all - and the British switched to the "American System" at the Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield and the private London Armoury Co. Again, no hand fitting was necessary with these two British companies using the American provided equipment. Was 65pan's shotgun made by equipment of the American system? Probably not.