Double flint for Grouse?

[James]

If a guy was wanting a double gun for grouse, could it be done with a flint type? With good locks is there a short enough fire time to make it effective? I am thinking 20 guage, but don't know how that works out in a BP. This is all new to me and I ask because I'm learning. Thank you, James

[Daryl]

A 16 or 20 would be just fine - or 12 bore, like this one.


Singles can be nice, too - and a lot cheaper.

[James]

I have always favored doubles. This will sound like a tall tale, but it's not. The first two grouse I ever fired at I killed with one shot fired at each, with a single shot 20 gauge within 5 minutes of each other. Being young I thought there is nothing to this hitting a grouse, well if I had stopped then I would have had a great average. I didn't and well you know the rest

[northmn]

As I have been shooting grouse on and off for about 40 years plus I can say that hunting them with a flintlock is great if you do not care to clean and eat grouse.  One individual wrote about hunting wood cock with a flint fowler and did so because he was not fond of wood cock.  His recipe began use one wood cock with about 5 pounds of hamburger.  I tend to share his philosophy and do not shoot them any more.  If you are hunting over pointers a flitlock would be challenging.  Walking trails and jumping them more so.  Even a percussion hammer gun is different than a modern gun in that the time it takes to pull back the hammer is longer.  I have shot quite a few with BP hammer guns both muzzle loadere d cartridge.  The ones I have gotten with a flintlock have been sitting or ground sluiced.  I take no shame in doing so with a flintlock.  Use one and enjoy it.  I have been thinking about building up a flintlock double also.  Look at the English designs with the recessed breeches which make them much more manageable.

DP

[Jerry V Lape]

Wingshooting start in earnest with flintlock shotguns.  I have read arguments about whether it was the British or the French that really started building guns capable of accommodating it.  I have shot a few stations of skeet with ab antique Belgium 16ga flintlock and found it was quite possible to learn to hit fast flying targets with one.  Not going to pretend it won't take considerable practice. 

With a percussion it think the learning curve won't be near so steep but I am looking for a small bore flintlock for quail and sporting clays currently.  Pricey stuff! 

[Kermit]

Listen to Daryl. Consider a single. Not so much investment, and if it isn't your cup of herbal infused beverage, not so much went into it.

I used to hunt grouse with a 12ga cap gun, then with a 20ga flinter. Actually, I started as a mere youth with a .410 single. My favorite, admittedly shooting sitting birds, is my .50cal smoothrifle with a load of 6's. I don't hunt them so much anymore, mostly due to relocating to the suburbs.

All that said, there is absolutely NO gun more pleasing to my eye than a flint double.

[northmn]

Wingshooting start in earnest with flintlock shotguns.  I have read arguments about whether it was the British or the French that really started building guns capable of accommodating it.  I have shot a few stations of skeet with ab antique Belgium 16ga flintlock and found it was quite possible to learn to hit fast flying targets with one.  Not going to pretend it won't take considerable practice. 

With a percussion it think the learning curve won't be near so steep but I am looking for a small bore flintlock for quail and sporting clays currently.  Pricey stuff! 

Skeet or sporting clays is one thing a grouse breaking through the brush is another.  It can be doen but there will be more than a few misses.  Grouse hunting has changed also in my area.  On weekends the state and national forests practically need stop lights on the roads for traffice control.  Where on used to be able to walk a trail and pick up a couple of birds in a couple of hours even missing a few its has changed and later in the season they are wild and fewer in between.

DP

[Daryl]

Around here, you have to kick or push them to get them to fly - normally. We usually shoot their little mellons off with rifles.

[bob in the woods]

The grouse on my property have a University education given them by me with my N.E. fowler 
I hunt the same birds all season, and usually end up with 3 or 4 but there's no danger of running out of birds!  What my dog thinks of the game is another thing. I'm not sure who is more surprised when I get one...him or me
Seriously ,though. I  had a 28 bore flinter, oct/round , 34 in barrel ; it was a joy to take after partridge, and was absolutely deadly.  There was no disadvantage in using it that I saw. I sold it in a moment of foolishness.  One day I'd like to build another.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

There is definitely something sexy about a double flint shotgun.  But you don't need two barrels, because it's rare to get two shots.  I've often put up a grouse, and taken a shot - missed - and then have a second bird flush from the other side of the trail.  I have never got a good shot away at the second bird even though I know it's in the bush.

I got one last fall with my Manton percussion 15 bore, knowing it was there, and walking up carefully.  When it flushed, it was from a tree - didn't expect that - and I swung and fired.  I hit the bird with one # 7 1/2 in the head - that's it!  Unlucky bird.  But very satisfying for me.

Later in the fall, I hunted with round ball in the left barrel and shot in the right, and had shots at several ruffies, but didn't connect on any of them.  Bullwinkle nor Bambi didn't step out on the trail either, so I pulled the ball at the end of the season, unfired.

[omark]

i agree with kermit and taylor, nice double flints are beautiful. i have used a navy arms double capper and gotten several rabbits, pheasants, ducks and even a canada goose. sure is fun, especially when your game is just as dead as the other hunters using expensive modern guns. i, too, would like to build a double 20 and was considering the set in the for sale column but someone beat me to it while i was counting my pennies, oh well. hope he does good with them.   mark

[Jerry V Lape]

Dpeck,  having more than a few eastern Ruffed Grouse under my belt, I fully understand the difference between a wild flush and a skeet or sporting clays target.  I also understand that if you learn how to swing smoothly and continue your follow through at skeet or clays you will stand a lot higher chance of connecting on a real flush.  Also worked out pretty well on thousands of wild desert quail, Hungarian partridge, Chuckar, and wild pheasant Sage Grouse, various doves and waterfowl on more than one continent.   

I was just saying IMHO it is quite possible to learn to deal with the lock time of a flinter. 

[James]

I need something to challenge me and you folks have sealed the deal. In speaking with John Getz today he suggested finding a pair off a modern gun. We'll see, but it is in the line up, behind 5 other builds though. By then I might be able to do it justice. I have a pretty decent grouse and woodcock population, varies some with the cycle but hit into a few 8 bird groups this fall. While unarmed

[Leatherbelly]

  James,
  Easier yet. Just get ahold of a nice 20 ga fowler or trade gun and shoot shot at grouse, and partake in Smoothbore contests with round ball. Shoot deer and moose with round ball too if so inclined!

[Daryl]

Timberdoodles (woodcock) are fun and exciting with a modern gun- very difficult too, in a tight damp bush.  That was their domain back East in South Western Ontario,  I had discovered them while Taylor was off learning to be a Mountie and on his first vacation home, after 2 years away, I took him out woodcock hunting.  The first one to flush was in sight for about 2 seconds and 8 feet before disappearing seemling to rocochete through the trees. He shoulted "What the h--l was that?"  I asked Why didn't you shoot it - that's a woodcock.  Taylor said he hadn't even really seen it before it disppeared - tough flint shooting at best!

 There, it's almost impossible with a modern gun, but open chokes, light handling and learning to hip shoot does work - there, it did for me.

Grouse shootng is a different in the Eastern bush - flushing wild at about 25 to 35 yards without a dog - a stong modified choke & 7/8oz. to 1oz. #6's was needed for the 20 bore. 1st sight of them was probably 35 to 40 yards.  Here, round ball (or bullets) works fine for head shooting sitting birds.

 I hunted grouse back in Ontario for 8 or 9 years and never saw one sitting.  When Taylor wrote and said he'd been shooting them with a rifle, I almost called him a fabricator (or a word to that effect).  Here in BC, I've shot as many as 15 Ruffie's in a day, all head shots with modern rifles.

The most collected with a ML in a day was 6.  I also blew some up with a .58 Hawken using 200gr. of 2F while hunting with Taylor - feathers and little chunks of meat in the bushes, but thats another story.

[northmn]

Dpeck,  having more than a few eastern Ruffed Grouse under my belt, I fully understand the difference between a wild flush and a skeet or sporting clays target.  I also understand that if you learn how to swing smoothly and continue your follow through at skeet or clays you will stand a lot higher chance of connecting on a real flush.  Also worked out pretty well on thousands of wild desert quail, Hungarian partridge, Chuckar, and wild pheasant Sage Grouse, various doves and waterfowl on more than one continent.   
I was just saying IMHO it is quite possible to learn to deal with the lock time of a flinter. 

Pheasants and open country birds are made for a flintlock fowler in that the ability to swing is there.  You can get a ruffed grouse with a flintlock fowler on the wing, but I am saying that you will get a lot more misses.  Hunting grouse as much as I have screwed me up when I first went after pheasants, as I would be on them on the flush at the second wingbeat.  Notice most are saying how successful they have been with a percussion.  I have shot trap and hunted with a flintlock fowler, and have taken the challenge of hunting grouse with a flintlock.  Thats why I ground swat them with a fowler.  It is fun

[northmn]

The classic wingshooting experience is to walk up on a pointer or follow a flushing dog.  Doing this one can ear back the hammers of a fowler while getting ready for the flush.  That to me is the fun of bird hunting, watching dog work.  If one is walking a trail for grouse in most Minnesota cover, which is very thick aspen, the big drawback to a older gun, be it BP catridge, percussion, or flint is getting the hammer back in time to shoot, probably as much as the ignition time.  Lots of difference between that and a tang safety on a modern double. A good swing works on grouse but a lot get got with a quick poke and hope.  I can remember many fond swings that tore bark off of trees.  I shot at one with a percussion 28 gauge and blew a small aspen sapling off about 4 feet from the end of the muzzle.  The spaling was about a perfect fit in the muzzle.  Another time I remember a hunting companion getting all upset because his dog did not retrieve a grouse he thought he shot.  Turned out he blew the top off a dead tree.
The last few times I hunted with a pointer, the grouse ran like pheasants and flushed in cover that did not offer a shot.  This was on public land.  When I hunt them on my own place they act more civilized and worked with a pointer.  On public land a flusher works better.  Once in a while one gets one that flys straight down a logging trail which makes for an easy shot.  Also they sometimes clear the brush and fly over the tops in the clear.  Those that zig zag through the aspens are the real challenge.
Shooting clays helps for hunting, but for me, I find it helps to use my own throwers and set up my own shots.  Some of the formalized sports tend to put one in a "groove"   Also I can work on right to left shots which for a lefty can be like a left to right for the right handed shooter. Its a little less expensive also as sporting clays started to get a bit rich for my income when I shot it a lot.

DP

[James]

It is not my intent to presume to school any of you folks who have much more experience than I. But, what works for me here in wilderness PA is to vary my pace trying hard to have no pattern to my stride. I have become quite successful at getting flushes 10-20 feet directly in front of me. I understand that getting the cock back and getting pointed place a challenge, not to mention those pesky moving trees. Made a heck of a nice lead on a running doe along time ago, -15 degrees out, got a great shot on the 24" beech that jumped in the way  Left a sweet 6 inch perfect circle of missing bark.

[northmn]

Varying your pace and stopping also works pretty good in MN.  Grouse are probably one of the few birds where hunting without a dog is as effective as hunting with one.  Actually it takes a very good dog to be a grouse dog.  I have sometimes wondered if wearing blaze orange and pretending I am deer hunting would not be the best strategy.  Seems like I get the best shots at them carrying a deer rifle.  Flintlock shotguns in general work with a sustained lead system as compared to the come up from behind and touch off system with faster ignitions.  Others may have different experiences but I have read where others using fowlers use that method.  When I shot BP trap with my Brown Bess the first time a few members in the crowd clapped when I broke the first clay as they thought it was an accident.  I think I got 7 or 8 out of 10.  They quit after a couple of breaks.  I sold the Bess and made a 12 bore that fit me that I wish I would have kept.  If a double is the itch then scratch it, but like Taylor and a couple of others, for a grouse gun I would build a 12 or 16 bore single barrel flintlock using something like Colerains 30 inch English pattern.  I built my 12 bore from an old single shot action I picked up at a gun show for $5.00.  Reamed out the choke and have a handy little 30" barrel.  I would show more pictures but I should have done more homework before building it and it does not look as English as I wanted.  Learn as we go.


DP

[Birdhunter]

I have had good success with Blackpowder shotguns on grouse. 1st tip : use 3f powder in smaller quantities for faster ignition. 2nd tip : a double is almost useless when hunting grouse because the smoke almost always obscures the bird if you miss , thus preventing a second shot,however that is what I carry now. A double is handy if there is a pair & one leaves a little late. The best BP gun I ever used on grouse & woodcock was a 16 bore single that I made using a Belgian barrel & an L&R Manton flintlock. I loaded it w/ 70 gr. 3f & 1 1/8 oz of 8shot. I also had a grouse machine of an English Setter named Dan that was an asset to the cause. The good ones always die too soon. Go ahead & get yourself a BP shotgun & have fun. By the way........ya don't have to ground sluice em.

[northmn]

I have had good success with Blackpowder shotguns on grouse. 1st tip : use 3f powder in smaller quantities for faster ignition. 2nd tip : a double is almost useless when hunting grouse because the smoke almost always obscures the bird if you miss , thus preventing a second shot,however that is what I carry now. A double is handy if there is a pair & one leaves a little late. The best BP gun I ever used on grouse & woodcock was a 16 bore single that I made using a Belgian barrel & an L&R Manton flintlock. I loaded it w/ 70 gr. 3f & 1 1/8 oz of 8shot. I also had a grouse machine of an English Setter named Dan that was an asset to the cause. The good ones always die too soon. Go ahead & get yourself a BP shotgun & have fun. By the way........ya don't have to ground sluice em.

You do not have to ground swat them, but with a flintlock I do shamelessly.  I bet when the English setter went on point and you could come up inready position that helped also.  I really miss those days.  Been too busy to train up a pointer lately, but had a couple of good German Shorthiars and a "Daddy may I keep it" mutt that actually pointed on her own.  Miss that dog a lot, like you said the good ones die too soon.
Shot at some ducks one day with a BP cartridge gun loaded with dismuth.  It was a damp almost foggy day.  The smoke just hung there and by the time I could see the ducks they must have been 100 yards away.  Should have been shooting on the run moving in.  Kind of thought it was funny at the time. 
I use the single shots and do not really miss the doubles all that much.  Looking at a single shot 16 in a modern gun for busting tag alders with. Single shots are lighter weight also.

DP