lock geometry

[holzwurm]

I'm having trouble getting this lock to spark. In addition to my probably not having the frizz properly tempered I'm beginning to think I see a missalignment of the cock and frizz. If I put in a flint I see that it is too far left and does not fully engage the frizz and seems as if it would hit the lock plate if it drops. If I align the edge of the flint to the face of the friz the flint is off set in the cock.

When I picture the lock and draw a line through the friz and top of the cock I'm pretty sure the cock has to come over to the right a bit to be in proper alignment. Does anyone else see this or is it a figment on poor eye sight?

 

What is the best way to correct this? Where should I put the kink. Is this a job I can do while the cock is in the lock or should I remove the cock and do a "bend-and-fit" kind of job?

I have another problem with the cock/friz but lets take it one step at a time.


Jerry

[Acer Saccharum]

That's not a critical issue. Just move the flint over and tighten it up.

The not sparking is another issue entirely; that misalignment will have little bearing on the poor sparking.

I hope that helps?

Tom

[Jim Kibler]

If you want you can bend the cock so it tips over at the top a little and you can also put a bit of a twist in it to help alignment.  Probably not required, but best to heat for this operation.  As Acer said, it is a pretty common condition.  I've seen the bending I described on originals to help the issue.  Not a big deal if it stays like it is though.

[David R. Pennington]

My first build I used a Siler kit and I have the same problem. I have to set my flint over to the right a little to get it to hit the frizzen square, but when I get a good flint set in right it sparks like the dickens and ignition seems almost instant. I've thought about bending the cock and maybe I will someday.

[Blacksmoke]

Jerry:   Both Tom and Jim are correct - the flint does not have to be centered in the jaws of the cock.   However the cutting edge of the flint should be parallel with the face of the frizzen if you move it over a bit.    The other problem that you are having with the lock not sparking correctly looks  like it might be the hardness of the frizzen.  I judge that by coloration of the backside of the frizzen which is in the photo that  you posted.   It looks like you attempted to harden it with out drawing the temper.  If I am correct feel free to get back to me and I will walk you through the steps necessary to draw temper with high cardon steel.    Hugh Toenjes

[Gaeckle]

I'm thinking the frizzen is soft. The alignment of the cock is really not that critical, as said by others, but the hardening of the frizzen is critical.

[Kelhammer]

I have seen a hardness range given before, but my skills at searching these posts needs a lot of work.  So, in what range of hardness do you want your frizzen to be, to produce a good spark?

Andrew

[Blacksmoke]

Andrew:   The face of your frizzen should be hard enough so that a sharp file will not cut into it ,
but rather it will skate across it without cutting.   I cannot give you the "Rockwell" hardness # as I am not a metallurgist.    However if you have an "untempered" frizzen, the temper should be drawn before you attempt to use it for fear of it cracking or breaking because it is very brittle without tempering.
Hugh Toenjes

[JCKelly]

Regardless of how hard is the frizzen face, it is a good idea to temper the neck a bit hotter, so it does not break off one day when you shoot it.
Keep the face cool, one way or another, and draw the neck as hot as you can. . . well, it doesn't need to glow.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

After hardening, but before drawing the temper, I heat the bottom of the pan with a torch until blue runs up the polished frizzen face about 3/16", and quench to stop it.  This ensures that the frizzen does not break off at the bend.  Then I draw the temper in my kitchen oven at 375 for an hour.  You may have to adjust the time or heat depending upon your own oven.  Jerry Huddleston likened the frizzen to a cookie...it may be the right colour on the outside, but still just dough on the inside.  So it has to soak at the correct temperature to get cooked all the way through.

[holzwurm]

do new frizzens need to be drawn in the oven or can they be used right out of the box??

And, yeah, I did try to harden the friz - but did not draw out the piece (forgot that's part of the precess). I'm going to try to start all over again with this one. I'll clean it up then heat it red and let it cool slowly at room temperature then attack it again. I saw Jim harden a friz at Bowling Green last year. It was one of the locks in his lock making class so I'm pretty confident the students drew out the hardness in an oven at some point.

[Blackpowder Barbie]

Ok, first off are you building this lock from scratch or did you buy it already assembled?

If you bought it already assembled it should spark and fire as is.  If it does not then contact the maker and let them give you proper hardening instructions for their frizzens.  Unfortunately our experience with folks hardening their own frizzens puts the success rate at about 45%.   Now don't get me wrong some folks have got it figured out by all means, but in our perspective it can lead to loss of carbon quicker than gain with lack of experience and loss of carbon leads to loss of spark.  

If you bought this as a kit, it should have come with hardening instructions, if not and it's one of ours just let me know and I can send you a copy.

And finally, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the geometry of that lock when it comes to hammer verses frizzen alignment.  All of our locks have the hammer off center, as do all the locks on all the originals guns we own.  Can't tell you why they made them that way back then, but we continued the tradition.  So no worries there.

Here's a photo of one for you:



Let me know if I can answer any other questions!  

[holzwurm]

 I yield the floor to an esteemed pro. Since I have another friz I just use this one an a learning tool.

Thank you

[Blackpowder Barbie]

Dad posted this on another thread last night, but I thought I should copy it here as well, for general knowledge sharing!

All of our frizzens as well as all the frizzens on Siler locks from the beginning are (and have been) made of 1095 steel.  We always recommend using an oil quench.  From experience, we have learned that frizzens dropped into cool or even room temp. water will often break in half in use.
We harden all of our frizzens using an oxy-acetylene torch burning a carburizing flame.  Heat to a bright cherry red (actually more of an orange to my eyes), hold at that heat for at least a full minute,  dunk in the oil bath, and  move around slowly in the oil until it is cool to the touch.  Clean it up, and cook in the oven at 375 to 400 degrees for an hour.  Kasenite will work but should not be necessary if you follow the above instructions.

[Kelhammer]

While I have not tested my frizzen, I did take in a steel I use in my tinder kit today, and tested it for hardness.  It throws good sparks when hit with a piece of flint.  I would get different readings depending on where I checked it, which puzzled me some.  Results were between 54 and 51 rockwell C.  I plan on taking in a frizzen from a Chambers lock latter this week to check out.  I like numbers and forget about the hardness tester we have at work.  It is in good working order and I am confident in the results.

Andrew

[Long John]

Miss Barbie,

There is NOTHING wrong with your locks! 

Look at all the pictures.  The hammer is designed to center the flint over the flash pan cavity.  that is where you want the sparks to go!  The frizzen is centered over the whole pan.  The frizzen has the job of keeping the powder in and the weather out.  It has to cover the whole flash pan.   Since the whole pan extends further away from the barrel than the cavity (that keeps the powder in the pan, thank you very much) it will not be centered relative to the cock (hammer).  I have 3 French pistols on my desk, here, and on every one of them the centerline of the cock (hammer) is a little closer to the barrel than the centerline of the frizzen.

Best Regards,

JMC