.410 patterns

[LynnC]

Played this afternoon.
 Built a percussion .410 for the grand kids and finaly got around to trying some no. 8 through it.  Gun weighs 3 lb 6 1/2 oz. with 22 1/2" bbl.  Really light wt. Too light.  

Sharppend a piece of tube that made .oo5 oversize wads in the drill press and cut some .040 and .010 thick wads.

All loads were 2 - .040 over powder wads, paper shot cup and 1 -  .010 over shot card

Loads were equal volume 3fg and no 8 shot(about 400 to the oz), range  15 yds at a 20" circle

18gr - 1/4 oz
Anemic and thin pattern

27 gr - 3/8 oz
141 pellets of about 150 in circle and even

32 gr - 7/16 oz
125 of about 175 in circle ? ? ?

36 gr - 1/2 oz
154 of about 200
In circle

Though 1/4 oz equals ball wt it was just too thin to be of any good

3/8 oz made a very even pattern and pleasant to shoot

7/16 oz made a thinner pattern and muzzle jump

1/2 oz put more in the circle but only 13 more than the 3/8 load.  Pretty even pattern and Lots of muzzle jump

So far 3/8 oz seems to be the most efficient load.

Any suggestions on what to try next.  It would be great if I could get an even pattern at 20 yds but the few I tried today had holes.  15 yds may be all she's good for - anyway, enjoyed the afternoon.......Lynn

[BrownBear]

No first hand experience, but a buddy of mine has an old CVA double 410 that has me seriously looking for one of my own.  I have no idea what combos he also tried, but he settled on best patterns from both barrels using 1/2 oz of #7 1/2 magnum shot and a like volume of 3f Goex.  If I recall correctly from watching, he's splitting fiber wads he got from TOW for his base wads.  Based on performance on ptarmigan hunts, I'm sure he's getting 20-yard+ performance with that load.  I've watched him rain birds to the ground at that distance with startling regularity. Same for snowshoe hare.  Kinda makes me wonder why I'm packing my 12 or 20 when most shots are less than 25 yards.

[northmn]

A modern 410 is not the best patterning shotgun either.  The 3" 410 is notoriously inefficient and the 1/2 ounce load will do about anything the 11/16 3" load will do, especially on something flying.  One thing to consider is that holes can be caused by wads bumping up against the back of the shot column.  I have not ahd time to try it, on paper but have had some luck with paper towel wadding and other types. I won a shoot off in a clay pigeon match.  I ran out of wads and used napkins from the concession stand.  Draw back is that they can start a fire in dry conditions.  When I would shoot you could see the paper disentegrate.  Some are having luck using thin fiber wads as they can lube them.  I use a fiber wad no thicker than 1/4 inch.

DP

[Daryl]

I didn't have a .410 ml shotgun, but did have a .44 smoothbored 1/2 stock. I shot 1/2oz. with about 35gr. of 3F and it patterned very well for killing birds, bunnies and clay birds to about 35 yards. I once broke 10 straight clay birds wiht it, to win the trap shoot against choked 12 and 10 bore doubles.  It patterned very well indeed.

 I used a lead lap (as per Ned Robert's book) and lapped in .005" deep X 2" long with 1" of "end choke".  The "end choke" is the length of the parallel bore section adjacent to the crown.

[LynnC]

Thanks all for the suggestions!

Brown Bear - I'll see if I can find some heavy felt to cut some cushion wads to try

D Peck - a month or so ago I must admit I tried a variety paper wad combos and couldn't get any kind of even pattern.  Really I was just avoiding making a real wad cutter to make consistent wads   So thats where I ended up.

Daryl, you may have the answer by lapping in a mild choke - 35 yds is a ways out - if I get 20 I think I'd be pretty happy.  25 would be great!

Before I try choking it I think I may try either a little less powder or a little more shot to tighten up the pattern at 20 yds

Did I mention this thing is really light in the muzzle?  Literally jumps from your forend grip with 1/2 oz load - lively little piece!

Started with breech loading .410 bbl -  cut the breech and full choke muzzle off.

Very Light bbl........think I need a solid steel RR to add some muzzle weight...........Lynn

[ottawa]

from what I've read on hear a few shooters us the plastic shot cups with good results

[Daryl]

Plastic the the hot flame of BP don't get along - it is difficult to remove from the barrel, at times, due to being melted on, I suppose.

[LynnC]

The paper shot cups I'm making seem to be doing a pretty good job.

I cut squares (sized for the particular shot load) from typing paper, fold up the corners to my undersize dowel form.  Looks like a paper broad head - then I twist the fins round the dowel.  Put in the muzzle an gently push it to the OP wads so as not to deform them.  Then shot an OS card.

They must open like a parachute cause I find em within 10 ft of muzzle.  Though torn apart, there are no holes from shot wearing thru - at least in the remnants I picked up.  Not knowing any better, that's how I'm doing it.

If there are other ways to make paper shot cups, I'd sure like to try'em.........Lynn

[northmn]

I make a short starter for installing shot cups so that I can seat the OP wad close to the muzzle end and then roll the wads into the muzzle and add shot and a OS wad and then seat the whole thing.  Brown paper as in paper shopping bags also makes a good sleeve.  As to wads, one needs to use what works as found by patterning.  Many like to use about 1/4 inch fiber wads which are not all that costly.

DP 

[omark]

as daryl says, plastic shot cups can cause terrible fowling. what i do is use an over powder wad, then a lubed felt cushion wad, then the plastic shot cup. can shoot my 12 ga forever without any problems that way and it tightens patterns. also found the shot size i use makes a big difference.    mark

[camerl2009]

cool i got a .410 on the to make list

[LynnC]

DP - I'll try the paper bag shot cups.  How do you form up that cup on the starter?

In the past I tried makin the load up at the muzzle as you describe in my 12 bore and shoving the whole load down but it always seemed to jam up and I couldn't push it down.  Had to pour it out and seat one component at a time on the powder.  Didn't even try it in .410 for that reason.  I must have been doin sumpin wrong as it seems to work for others.  I appreciate your suggestions.

[LynnC]

Thanks Omark - it may come to plastic shot cups but I want to try to stay with paper - low budget

Camerl - word of advise - longer heavier barrel than the cut down winchester bbl I used.  Too Light.........Lynn

[northmn]

I do not form a cup I use a sleeve.  You cut a length of paper that will fit the shot column and bore and make a template to cut others. It will be a rectangle.  When installing in the bore you remove the starter and roll the sleeve and place it in the bore as it will expand to the bore when the shot is dropped in.   It will have a slit on one side.  Plastic will work if one uses a card underneath.  I have tried plastic steel shot cups with good results in that manner.  Old wasps nest used to be a popular wad material but disentegrates if carried in a pouch.

DP

[Daryl]

As mark indicated, I also used shot cups, in my instance, 410 plastic wads, but used 1/10" monopoly board wad between the plastic and the powder.  I did not get plastic fouling with that. The plastic fouling I got was with some BP loads in 12 bore breech loader - that event taught me to use heavy tight fitting card wads.

[omark]

DP - I'll try the paper bag shot cups.  How do you form up that cup on the starter?

In the past I tried makin the load up at the muzzle as you describe in my 12 bore and shoving the whole load down but it always seemed to jam up and I couldn't push it down.  Had to pour it out and seat one component at a time on the powder.  Didn't even try it in .410 for that reason.  I must have been doin sumpin wrong as it seems to work for others.  I appreciate your suggestions.

lynn, i have read about some people having trouble making the load at the muzzle, then trying to shove it all home. they figure it is because the shot is expanding and causing a plug but sometimes different size shot cures that.  i have always loaded each component seperately, so i have no personal experience with this.    mark

[northmn]

Might be a problem in a fouled bore.  Seating a thin OP wad first may help straighten things out.

DP

[omark]

dp, quite true, hadnt thought of that.    mark

[LynnC]

DP - I'll try the shot sleeve idea....

Omark and DP - maybe I couldn't build the load at the muzzle because I was forming a paper cup on a starter and stuffing that in the muzzle.  Something about that method doesn't lend itself to being pushed down the tube clean or fowled.  The slit sided sleeve may offer less resistance

Daryl - I can just see the look on the grand kids face when they break out the ole Monopoly game and find a "Holy" game board :O

[Daryl]

What Monopoly board? Must be around here somewhere.