Identify this Virginia rifle-- is it also by William Zollman of Rockbridge??

[WElliott]

The rifle pictured below has been in my collection for many years and is one of my favorites.  I know it was made in Virginia and have speculated Rockbridge County down to the SW.  Recent postings by Chris of his iron-mounted William Zollman rifle and by Ed of his brass Zollman have led me to believe that my rifle may also be by Zollman.  One of the distinctive characteristics of my rifle is the scalloped relief at the end of the wrist.  Chris' rifle has somewhat similar work on the cheek side wrist.  There is much in the architecture to suggest the same hand.  The rear portion of the side pieces of the box on Ed's brass rifle and this rifle are very similar, etc. 

The rifle is 64 3/4" overall, 48 3/4" .50 caliber swamped barrel, untouched (at least to my eye) and unmarked flintlock, and a blacksmith iron ramrod.

There seem to be several ALR posters who are familiar with Zollman's work.  What do you gentlemen (and others) think?
 

[Buck]

 Nice rifle!

[cshirsch]

Very nice rifle indeed but in my opinion it is not a Zollman gun.  That is only my opinion.

Chris

[Longknife]

That is a fine looking rifle! I compared it to my brass mounted rifle and will point out the differences that I see:

1.  The cheekpiece "scallop" is different, on my Zollman it does not extend past the comb to the other side of the rifle.

2. Also you can see the cheekpiece has a some what different look. Your rifle has lines or "wings" fore and aft of the cheekpiece, mine does not.

3.  In the second picture the rear moulding of the lock panel is slightly squared on my Zollman, yours is pointed.





3.  Although the patch box side  plates are similar The engraveing is totaly different: Your gun uses wavey lines to border the pieces and lots of "crosshatching"..My Zollman uses  lines and "dashes" to border with and there is no "crosshatching". Also the lid engraving is totaly different.






4. Both my brass Zollman and Chris's plainer iron mounted Zollman have the same fore-end incise carving, yours does not.



Having a Zollman rifle in hand I would have to conclude that your gun was not made by Zollman, but to be sure you should immediately send it to me for a closer unprofessional examination!!!...Ed

[Hurricane ( of Virginia)]

Regardless of ones "conclusion" as to who made the  gun , the dialogue/debate here with illustrations is most instructive. Thank you from all of us students!
Hurricane

[JTR]

A semi detailed look at the patchbox engraving leads me to believe that Zollman didn't make Wayne's rifle. A closer look with high quality patchbox pictures might show differently,,, maybe...

But it's a darn nice rifle regardless of who made it,, and would be interesting to find out just Who did make it! Great color on the brass too!!!

John

[WElliott]

Thank you Ed, Chris and other friends for your observations.  Have any of you seen similar wrist scalloping, architecture, engraving and other features that would give you a clue about who may have made this rifle?  Your input is appreciated. I am been trying to sort this one out for almost 20 years. 

[jdm]

Wayne,  What a neat ,neat gun. I love the patina ,nice architecture and box . The scallop around the comb is a nice touch. Although probally not your fanciest or most valuable ,I bet it's on of your favorites. Great look to it.   JIM

[WElliott]

Thanks, JDM.  Yes, it is one of my favorites.

[bgf]

Wayne,
Very nice rifle.  Do you have a closeup of the sideplate and/or a picture of the toeplate and patchbox release?  Also, in the picture of the left side of the buttstock, there appears to be a file cut through the buttplate, but offset from the molding line along the toe.  Is it really a cut or just something else?

[WElliott]

Sorry, these are just snapshots:

[bgf]

Wayne,
I don't think I'm much help, but this one intrigues me.  I can see why you went to SW Va. first, but have you considered upper valley at least north of Staunton?  There is a definite resemblance (at least to me) in the sidepanels of the patchbox and the sideplate to the rifle in KR&P signed I. Grandstaff.  In fact there are several rifles with a similar (to varying degrees) sideplate and set of PB sidepanels labelled Upper Valley school -- including Sheetz, etc.,   but they all have a hinge that runs all the way across the PB, not just the lid as on yours, plus the finial is quite different.

Also, the triggerguard, toeplate and release position (but the button is square vs. round) are similar on this Spitzer:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=13442.0

I'm not suggesting any one of these did it, but I just thought there were some interesting resemblances and that that area might hold the maker.  At the worst, if you tell me why that is not a possibility I will have learned something.

[WElliott]

bgf, thank you for broadening my perspective.  I think you are right about the similarity of the guard and toeplate and release position to the Spitzer, and you are right about the sidepanels, etc., of the I Grandstaff.  It is probable that the maker of my rifle trained and worked in the Valley.  The size and butt architecture of my rifle suggests lower valley influence to me. Perhaps the maker trained in the upper valley and made this rifle in the lower valley.  Who knows - maybe he made it in Georgia (I know a Georgia-made rifle with scalloped relief on the wrist  . . . .)  Anyway, it seems to me that the scallop on the wrist and the bold engraving with lots of hatchmarks may be clues that differentiate this maker from others working in the Valley.  Thank you for your good eye, bgf, and for the helpful thoughts.