Blown out drum

[Roger Fisher]

So, beware the sloppy fit and small dia perc drum i.e Past weekend shoot a rifleman had a drum and nipple blow out together with the hammer.  Hammer found 4 shooters down and of course the drum and nipple still lost.

I had the chance to discuss this with a shooter that was nearby on the 25 yd line when it happened.  He says the drum sheared off and it appeared to him to be a 1/4 incher. 

At this same shoot the day before the shooter had trouble with ignition (Oily breech and failed to dry her out b/4 loading for the first shot.) His father was attempting to prime the piece with my 4f and he dropped the nipple in to the gravel stones.  I recall noticing him 'on' the drum with a wrench and was backing the drum out. I also recall said wrench was about a 6 or 7 incher.  I was busy trying to do my own thing at the time. He finally got her to fire.  I will assume now that he may have cross threaded the drum when putting it back in and/or got a bii too 'postal' with the wrench and overtightened the thing and cracking it in the process. It is unknown to me if the plate provided support to the drum or not.  This rifle was a fine looking piece and was not an off the shelf rifle. 

Any comments and do you think we are on the mark regards the cause for this blown drum

This is simply to bring the subject to the fore here and to prossibly 'help; some builders out there.....

[Shovelbuck]

Any comments and do you think we are on the mark regards the cause for this blown drum

Without the gun in hand it's nothing but rumors and speculation. 

[Dphariss]

So, beware the sloppy fit and small dia perc drum i.e Past weekend shoot a rifleman had a drum and nipple blow out together with the hammer.  Hammer found 4 shooters down and of course the drum and nipple still lost.

I had the chance to discuss this with a shooter that was nearby on the 25 yd line when it happened.  He says the drum sheared off and it appeared to him to be a 1/4 incher. 

At this same shoot the day before the shooter had trouble with ignition (Oily breech and failed to dry her out b/4 loading for the first shot.) His father was attempting to prime the piece with my 4f and he dropped the nipple in to the gravel stones.  I recall noticing him 'on' the drum with a wrench and was backing the drum out. I also recall said wrench was about a 6 or 7 incher.  I was busy trying to do my own thing at the time. He finally got her to fire.  I will assume now that he may have cross threaded the drum when putting it back in and/or got a bii too 'postal' with the wrench and overtightened the thing and cracking it in the process. It is unknown to me if the plate provided support to the drum or not.  This rifle was a fine looking piece and was not an off the shelf rifle. 

Any comments and do you think we are on the mark regards the cause for this blown drum

This is simply to bring the subject to the fore here and to prossibly 'help; some builders out there.....

Drums, modern ones, are made of COLD ROLLED steel.
Cold rolled is brittle.
Brittle steels do not like shocks. The hammer pounding on the nipple shocks the part. Cold rolled steels are very weak in this regard some are remarkably weak. There is even an steel industry test for this. When tested cold rolled steels invariably break where notched
If firmly seated on the lock plate this is somewhat mitigated. But the firing cycle also shocks the part.
If not there is an excellent chance it will break off do the the hammering by the hammer and the fact the rebate is not radiused. Its invariably a sharp cornered cut (the notch) and of course the threads form sharp corners too (another notch).

Even of seated on the lock plate its not really safe.
I learned this as a teenager. So I don't make drum and nipple guns.
Nor, for obvious reasons, do I stand on the drum side of a D&N gun when its being fired.

Dan

[M Tornichio]

I would like to hear others opinions on this also. I just made one of these style rifles and it makes me kind of nervous. I have been pretty nuerotic trying to get everything just right. It did shoot good over the weekend.
It sounds like no one was hurt. That is a good thing.
Marc

[doug]

     I guess what surprises me is that the hammer was apparently blown off.  Almost sounds like it was a sloppy fit.   As to the drum, could be any one of several things and it does not overly impress me that they removed the drum to clear a wet breach.

cheers Doug

[Dphariss]

I would like to hear others opinions on this also. I just made one of these style rifles and it makes me kind of nervous. I have been pretty nuerotic trying to get everything just right. It did shoot good over the weekend.
It sounds like no one was hurt. That is a good thing.
Marc

Its not the first drum to break off.
It just another one of those things that make people nervous so they don't like to talk or even think about it.

The old drums were made of hot rolled usually iron. While the quality may not be as good in the terms of inclusions and such but its also much more ductile and not likely to break.
I have an original drum probably from 1830-40 ? its actually a very small threaded shank and is slightly bent.

Dan

[Blacksmoke]

The largest proportion of percussion drum failures is a result of poor gunmaking practices or the gun operator- not material fatigue.  That's not to say that you can use inferior metal for fabrication.   I recommend 4140 and good gunsmithing practices - you should be OK.  I had a gun come to the shop,once, with the lock blown completely off because of drum failure.   The maker only had two threads holding the drum into the barrel - no wonder it failed!      Hugh Toenjes

[whitebear]

I built a percussion gun one time with a 1/4" threaded drum. It cracked and broke off as I was screwing it into the barrel.  I got a bigger drum and re threaded it and had no problems with it.

[Leatherbelly]

    I'm glad I shoot flint!

[Skychief]

While I have never had a drum blow off a rifle, I have had plenty of other troubles with them, to the point I like to steer clear of them when possible.   I'll take a patent breech any day over a drum.

[stuart cee dub]

Never had a problem with a drum because....
1)The barrel was thick enough to have good and full engagement of the threads
2)The drum should always be supported fully by a side lock underneath it
3) Use a big drum with enough threads.Little drums do not carry enough fire.
     Percussion is a sealed bomb so best to use sturdy parts.It will never be elegant
 Sometimes the drum is bigger than the width of the side flats but in use I never notice.
Patent breeches can suffer from poorly drilled holes and sometimes need remedial polishing.
One of the reasons I like the drum system is that barrel replacement is less of a problem than it is with a patent breech casting.
If one is to use a thin walled barrel and percussion a patent breech is the only alternative.
The discussion of steel however is interesting.Most of the drums I have used were commercial blanks.Are those cold rolled steel?

[Captchee]

 I would say your on track Roger . But one cannot say for certain without seeing it first hand .
 But it does sound like the drum was either over tightened or weakened during the original install .  Then  enough force was needed to remove it to weaken it further  and it failed .
 Kinda hard to believe that dropping a nipple in the gravel  would result in pulling the drum ?
 They guy didn’t  carry an extra nipple in his box ?
 I have used  ¼ 28 drums now and then and not had an issue of them blowing out . But as was said , they have to be supported by the lock plate . Doing so  helps support the neck of the drum  as does proper seating of the drum to the barrel flat .
 I also cannot discount what Dan is saying .   As with all things  drums can fail ..
 Through the years  thinking back I can recall 2 drums  that I have seen fail .. Both were on production guns .
1) the  drum separated outside of the nipple
2)  the drum blew off leaving the neck in the barrel . On inspection  the break  looked to me to be from an old crack that finally gave way

 Personally I have seen more clean out screws  and flash channel plugs blow  on improved breeches then  drum bolsters blowing .

[Acer Saccharum]

I don't like drums much, but especially do not like the drums with small threaded sections. Once you start taking the drum in and out, the fit changes. Then you start shimming or loctiting the unit. Then wrapping with teflon tape. After that, the drum blows out when you least expect it.

I have installed drums for customers, but insist that they do not remove the drum for cleaning or misfiring. They look hurt and surprised, like I was reading their mind. When I explain why, they understand. Maybe they won't remove the drum anymore. Maybe.

Tom

[fm tim]

In a similar vein.
Any reports/experiences with vent liners failing?

[T*O*F]

Any reports/experiences with vent liners failing?

Everything fails and usually for the same reason.....poor workmanship rather than actual part failure.  Too many are quick to place blame on the part.

Yes, they do fail but are usually captured and retained by the lock bolster so you would almost have to blow the lock off for the liner to go sailling down the firing line.

[Roger Fisher]

In a similar vein.
Any reports/experiences with vent liners failing?

Yes, certainly.  I'll describe when I have the time/tyme/!

Okay, times up.----------  3 or so years ago I was on the 25yd line at a S/E Penna shoot and rondy, with a flinter to my left which left me on his lock side and fairly well away from him (Happily)  This shooter was shooting a .54 traditions or CVA not sure which.  He generally shoots mild (very) loads.  When his rifle 'fired' the weird sound (PFooom) caught my attention.  He was surprised to see his rifle vent was gone, blown out.  We took a very close look and the entire vent liner was gone with gas cutting clearly visible at several areas of the threaded hole.  His rifle was a very well used one and it is unknown now if he had attempted to remove the liner or not; but knowing him I doubt it.  Soooo, they do in fact come out; but rarely.   

[LRB]

  Wrong. A friend had the head blow off a vent leaving the threads behind. It's cone had been re-bored too thin. Did no damage to the lock, left no marks, but it had to go past it, and we never found the little missle.

[T*O*F]

Wrong. A friend had the head blow off a vent leaving the threads behind. It's cone had been re-bored too thin.

Not wrong!  Only a confirmation of my statement: Everything fails and usually for the same reason.....poor workmanship rather than actual part failure.

There are NO ACCIDENTS, there are only careless people.  Think about it.

[Dphariss]

In a similar vein.
Any reports/experiences with vent liners failing?

I found one cracked internally.

This did not appear at the outside of the liner. But was very obvious when I pulled the clean out from the breech. Could be the thin vent liner was flexing when the gun was fired or it could have simply been a flaw. But it did not appear until the rifle had been fired several hundred times.
I had one of the removable type gas cut around the threads after several years of service.
But this was done when I was about 18-19 years old and was simply installed as was/is currently done.

The stainless used is 303-304 it machines easily but tends to work harden and may be brittle as the rods come from the mill.
I tend to make my own now and use a thicker wall. But any free machining stainless steels are somewhat brittle.
This also applies to the 416-416R used in "modern" gun barrels it is a free machining material with relatively poor characteristics when internal pressure is applied and yes there have been failures and at least one recall. I know of one maker of 1911 pistol barrels that is apparently closing out their stainless inventory and a rifle barrel maker that states that their stainless barrels should not be fired under 0F or be reduced in contour.

Cold rolled steels, like 1144 can be very unforgiving if not properly machined. All reductions in diameter must be carefully radiused or it will snap off at the cut in use. Or so I have been told by someone who used to make power shafts from it. It will stand immense over torquing and will twist up without breaking. But make a non-radius cut to install a sheave or gear and it will snap off at that point with no warning and very little use.
So while the workmanship must be up to the job and all the work properly done, the material can contribute to problems.
Dan

[Rolf]

All this makes me wonder why we dare build guns at all . I t sounds like just a matter of time before we are all dead or mained!!!

Joking aside, this thread scares me a bit. I buy my liners with the tools to install them from Chambers, use a drillpress and follow the instructions to the letter. Is there any reason I should not trust the results?

I'm planing a left handed percussion Fleeger style rifle. I plan to use a 44" or 46" Price, swamped barrel, caliber 0.50 , B weight, with a lefthand Chamber s mountain style lock with this drum from TOW , "DRUM-8-6-F-L Powder drum, 1/2" diameter, 3/8-24 thread, not drilled for nipple, with lug for installation". I had planed to intall the drum and nipple with TOW recommended tools and instructions. Is this an unsafe build?

The only option to a drum for for southpaw is Tow Kit Carsons, slanted hawken breech
 http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=14&subId=143&styleId=516&partNum=PLUG-LH-16-3
Would it be safer to use this, instead of a drum? The tang would have to be  modified for a fleeger rifle.


Best regards
Rolf

[Roger Fisher]

    I guess what surprises me is that the hammer was apparently blown off.  Almost sounds like it was a sloppy fit.   As to the drum, could be any one of several things and it does not overly impress me that they removed the drum to clear a wet breach.

cheers Doug

Father & son both fairly new at the game.  When I saw him cranking out the drum I thought Now what the H.......?    I was doing my own thing.  I never saw these 2 shooters before and at that point assumed the father knew what he was doing.....

[Captchee]

  Rolf
 Everything has a self destruct date  that no one knows ..  If we build things properly  we hope that it will  make that date be farther down the line . But then we never really know , do we . Because frankly  we still rely  or hope that someone else  , who has made the part , has done so with the same mindset as we are doing .
Also remember that the more parts you put in or on a piece , the greater the chances of a failure . that’s just the way of it . There is just more that can go wrong .

As to vent liners failing . Ya , I have seen it happen . But its rare IMO as I have not seen it anywhere near the amount I have seen nipples blow from a bolster . Be it a  drum or an improved breech .
 As was stated before . Most of the time its either caused by a poor  build OR poor maintenance of the owner . I cant count the times I have found a customer has installed a  standard thread nipple in to  a metric threaded bolster    or Visa versa. Not to also mention just plain cross threaded  .
 I would also ask ,  how many of us have  seen drum bolsters  with Vise grip marks on  the drums ?
 Seriously  trying to get folks to understand that if a bolster is becoming miss aligned to the point it must be tightened up , its  tell you something is wrong .
 If  its felt that the bolster must be shimmed  then  its wrong . Either the threads were not properly indexed  to start with  or the nipple seat was drilled wrong .  
So again in the above cases we are talking improper install
 Other times when the problem occurs on older  guns  , its time to replace the bolster

 Take the case we are talking about .
A) how many times did the person  feel he needed to pull the bolster  to clear a fouled load
We simply don’t know
B) was this such a common happening that it never dawned  to him that nipples eventually need replaced and an extra one  should be carried ?
See we don’t know the experience of this person
 You just cant plan for  stupid  because just as soon as you do . Someone even stupider will come along .
Case in point .
I actually witnessed at a  trap range one evening  a man  who claimed to be a gunsmith , Taking a wood dowel and  trying to  slam a stuck casing from another persons  original parker SXS .
I couldn’t get over there fast enough  before the shell popped out.
All I could do was turn around an walk away .
 The guy did not have the since to  realize the shell had slipped   in front of the extractor. Thus the only way it would come back out without removing the extractor was for that extractor to bend or break. On top of all that  he had to use so much force that  he cracked the stock . that’s right , with the  gun open  and the other person holding the butt so he could drive the rod in , the resulting  torque split the stock .

 People do thing for who knows why . You just cant fix stupid  when a total brain @$#% is involved
 Past that  I personally feel that  when it comes to muzzle loading guns , far to many people look at them as little more then toys  that the TAR rule works just fine on .

So what do we do .  The only thing I know , is to try and educate. But all to often I think many of us  walk away  because we don’t want to offend  the person we know to be  doing something wrong . God forbid the result be that someone  gets hurt  

[Roger Fisher]

I would like to hear others opinions on this also. I just made one of these style rifles and it makes me kind of nervous. I have been pretty nuerotic trying to get everything just right. It did shoot good over the weekend.
It sounds like no one was hurt. That is a good thing.
Marc

Enjoy your rifle and care for her and she'll take care of you.  I must add this.My usual 'shooter' is a .45 cal drum and nipple rifle and she has well over 60,000 rounds through her (yes 60,000+) I only removed that drum once and then only to check her out. (I have an index mark so I get her turned to the exact spot she was in from the get go.  Of course, numerous nipples have been replaced.  My 100 yd charge is now 80 3 f Goex. (Yes, I cannot train myself to show more frt blade)  I'm only relating this to point out that the drum and nipple in my rifle has served me well at least so far and if you did and do your part so will yours...  I best add she is a 15/16 straight Getz. w/a 3/8th thread.

[Dphariss]

All this makes me wonder why we dare build guns at all . I t sounds like just a matter of time before we are all dead or mained!!!

Joking aside, this thread scares me a bit. I buy my liners with the tools to install them from Chambers, use a drillpress and follow the instructions to the letter. Is there any reason I should not trust the results?

I'm planing a left handed percussion Fleeger style rifle. I plan to use a 44" or 46" Price, swamped barrel, caliber 0.50 , B weight, with a lefthand Chamber s mountain style lock with this drum from TOW , "DRUM-8-6-F-L Powder drum, 1/2" diameter, 3/8-24 thread, not drilled for nipple, with lug for installation". I had planed to intall the drum and nipple with TOW recommended tools and instructions. Is this an unsafe build?

The only option to a drum for for southpaw is Tow Kit Carsons, slanted hawken breech
 http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=14&subId=143&styleId=516&partNum=PLUG-LH-16-3
Would it be safer to use this, instead of a drum? The tang would have to be  modified for a fleeger rifle.


Best regards
Rolf

I have 2 rifles I REALLY like that I just don't shoot any more. Every time I start thinking about shooting them another of these discussions comes up and I chicken out again, one I had shot for over 20 years. I plan to rebarrel at least one of them, maybe both.
I quit building drum and nipple guns long ago. Most of the better guns back in the day used patent breeches anyway. The drum and nipple was a cheap, low tech,  back woods way of making a percussion gun (I don't care if they made them in Philadelphia its still a true statement). It has virtually no advantage and a number of disadvantages some of them serious.
I do not particularly like drilling away an entire barrel flat right at the breech for example.

I built a Vincent Ohio rifle with a 1" barrel and it has a "Hawken" patent breech that can have the "hook" locked with a screw. Unless making  museum quality repro of an existing gun for appearances only then the patent breech is a better idea. I just wish there was a wider selection.
The thing is that one does not HAVE to use a drum and nipple. There are better options. A good patent breech is stronger and safer especially if it has a fence that shields the nipple and deflects any cap fragments and such away from the shooter.

I make liners from the same stuff that the cracked store bought one was made of but with thicker walls. Even with the crack there was no outward signs of the vent liner moving.
I would just love to make platinum lined steel vent liners but Platinum or even Gold is just too expensive. I have enough platinum to line a nipple may attempt it this week. Have a picket rifle match coming up and need a nipple for the rifle.
I just put a plug in a barrel in place of the old vent liner today. Its 303 stainless. The owner, a friend, wants to do his own hole so I just made a plug and fitted it. Since its already done (the hole in the barrel) I can't make it as I would like to but its not going to gas cut and I have faith that its not coming out till its pulled. The stresses on the vent liner and breech plug are different than the barrel and material that would not be suitable in a barrel is not a deal killer as a vent liner or a breech plug. The plug has no internal pressure in most designs and the vent liner unless very large has little internal pressure and is backed up by the barrel as are most "hollow" plugs. Threaded joints are not the same as tubes.
This is very very complex and while fairly well informed I am not trained in metallurgy. Its not something that is easily explained in a post on a web site.
There are risks in everything.
The failure rate in all MLs even the really junky ones some reenactors use is low. But people need to be informed so they can at least make informed decisions. A low failure rate is meaningless to the injured.
But some have a higher failure rate than others. Back in the 1970s-80s there was a rash of blowups of modern made in US factory MLs. Quite a few that we KNEW of and who knows how many others. This and some things that happened to me in my youth make me cautious.

The "modern" firearms are not immune.
I don't shoot stainless steel barrels anymore and have traded the ones I had off because I learned they have a higher failure rate than steel guns. They tend to fail with FACTORY AMMO as opposed to handloads and plugged barrels which are the prime cause in "steel" guns (so long as they are steel such as 4140/4150. There have been of SS handgun failures (1911s included in which overloads blow the brass cartridge case and operates at RB rifle pressure levels) and some CF rifle failures both here and in Europe. But people just love them stainless steel guns so there is a market for them and the companies keep cranking them out using material that from my reading, is not approved for "pressure vessel" applications by the ASME.
But the makers consider the risks acceptable I guess. But the right lawyer could really make some money off the bigger companies if there is a personal injury accident.

Dan