Second Bead on shotguns

[Long John]

At our local shoot yesterday a competitor arrived with a double barreled, side-by-side shot gun of modern manufacture but of traditional form.  No problem.  However, it was later noticed that this particular shotgun has a bead sight at the muzzle and then a second bead located right center on the rib between the barrels, about 8 inches from the breech.  The shoot committee opined that the second bead was essentially a rear sight and that it wasn't fair for this shooter to be competing against others who were using traditionally built scater guns with no rear sight.

Does anyone on this forum know when the use of a second bead located near the breech came into use?  Were second beads in use on the old-time English guns or old-time American guns?  Are "second beads" permitted in NMLRA rules?

Your coments would help me with a "political" situation brewing in an already too-small club.

Thanks.

Best Regards,

JMC

[James Rogers]

I don't know when they started with them but most all modern guns use them and if one is lining up with it while attempting a moving target  he is probably coming in last anyway.  It can mainly  be used for checking your eye location (rear sight) if you premount the gun for a shot. It will allow one who has a gun that does not quite fit to position themselves. Maybe those would fitted stocks should also be DQ'd?

Many Euro fowling pieces dating to the early eighteenth century have rear wing type sights at the same location.

Are the members of the shoot committee wing shooters?

Really can't see it as an advantage unless the competition includes pot shots like a turkey shoot.

[Daryl]

The addition of the second bead, as far as I know in This country, is mostly used on trap guns only. Thus, it is a 20th century device - here - perhaps in the US as well. I've owned shotguns for almost 50 years and only the 1970's era Trap gun had double sights, until I got a long barreled ribbed 1990's pump with 3 1/2" chamber- it also has the two beads - like the Trap guns.

I agree with James - If a person needs sights for shooting a side-by-side with shot, he is probably not in the winner's circle anyway.

I would not have voted against such a device when using shot as I do not see an advantage, but the reverse.

[Jerry V Lape]

Their use on a shotgun is supposedly to make sure the gun is mounted with a level sighting plane.  Typically if the front bead is sitting on the middle bead the barrel is shoulder mounted so the angle is correct to place the pattern about 60 percent above the point of aim which is about right for many wingshooters.  If there were a lot of barrel or rib showing between the two beads the gun would be pointed far to high and if you can't see the front bead it probably fell off or you have an ill fitting stock.  Mostly the beads are useful in practicing your gun mount until you are getting correct alignment each time.  If you are looking at your gun barrel or bead while actually shooting you just missed.  The rule is "See the beak - hit the bird".  Which means to focus sharply on a leading detail of the bird and nothing else - sort of like watching the baseball all the way into your glove.  

I don't know whether NMLRA permits the middle bead.  I think they could be used as an expedient rear sight.  Ivory beads sure do look cool on file cut nicely blued ribs.   Sort of like tasteful jewelry on a beautiful woman.  

Daryl, I think the second bead is older than that and certainly appears on more than just trap guns.  I have  field guns and skeet guns from 1890s and later with double beads.

[billd]

I have a Fox double, circa 1930 that has double beads.  I never even notice it when wing shooting.  It would be handy for punkin balls.   The rear bead is smaller than the front bead.  
Bill

[fdf]

Historically, I have no idea and will not speculate.

If there were no written range rules in place at the challenge, he gets a walk until written rules are in place which rule the rear bead can not be used.

My understanding is the rear second bead it to stop the canting of the shotgun, nothing else.

What if he had only a rear bead and no front bead, what happens then?

[northmn]

I have made it a point to remove them from the modern guns I shoot in the field.  In one case I was missing birds until I did.  Unless shooting roundball you may have a big ado about nothing. 

DP

[Dave Faletti]

Double beads are nice for a new shooter or someone having a bad day.  Quick way to check for canting the gun.  It doesn't compensate for an incorrect fit.  Unless someone does constant lead shooting they shouldn't notice the beads.  An actual rear sight on a shotgun for wing shooting would be a detriment so why even have a rule?  A well designed rib on a shotgun is a real advantage over a regular barrel.  Much better reference for the eye that does help for any type of wing shooting.  A better match for muzzleloading shotgun would be to use a skeet range and do single shots on most of the stations. 

[James Rogers]

It doesn't compensate for an incorrect fit. 

In the case of my prior statement, a shooter can take a gun that does not fit him well and use the double beads to acquire where he needs to be on the stock and then be able to shoot it fairly by memorizing the feel of that position. It does not and cannot as you have stated replace the positive effects of a well fitted stock. Some electrical tape, moleskin and cardboard will do much better ; )

[Daryl]

Daryl, I think the second bead is older than that and certainly appears on more than just trap guns.  I have  field guns and skeet guns from 1890s and later with double beads.

TKs for the clarification, Jerry -  it is a sad day indeed, when one doesn't learn something.

I can certainly see their purpose in proper alignment for a ill fitting shotgun - yes, that I can see.  I've shot a bunch of trap over the years - and hunted birds and learned to shoot with never seeing either bead when shooting either, clay or feathers - the gun being an extension of my arm, shot hitting where my hand/arm/gun pointed. 

I do not see multiple beads as being an aid to hitting, rather an distraction, perhaps aimed at getting people on edge.

[wmrike]

At the risk of being harsh, it sounds like the committee has had its collective head in the sand.

Middle beads are pretty common.  Their benefit is as an aid in checking barrel and eye alignment where the gun can be premounted.  In field situations it is a non-entity.

My first thought was like Daryl's.  Anyone who is using a middle bead when the gun is in motion has already missed.

[northmn]

Its funny how these issues come up.  The gun is a modern made commercially available double that the manufacturers felt needed a double bead like modern guns.  The person came in to shoot his shotgun and have a good time with it and some one had to nit pick.  When I was shooting we had a rule about adjustable sights, except on production guns, so that we could attract new shooters.  TC "Hawkens" predominated as production guns and the custom guns were outnumbered, yet if one shot a hand made gun they wanted you to use fixed sights.  I put an adjustable sight on a percussion I made as I was in a bit of a hurry to shoot it and I did not want to take the time to file in a fixed sight and caught a little grief by a self appointed PC policeman.  That same person would give me grief if he saw me shooting a percussion.  Many of the people had an attitude that if they can handicap the other shooters in some way then they can "level" the playing field.  The flintlock shooters kicked their butts anyway.  We shot a lot and they did not.  On a production gun you need to be a bit more accepting.
When I ran the shotgun range for the club I was in, we did not have many shotgun shooters, so to offer competition I permitted BP cartridges to shoot alongside ML's.  They had to have hammers and be a single shot or double.  A few brought their old Stevens type single shots loaded with BP.  They did not have a real advantage and the ML's tended to win.  I told those that complained that I did this to promote BP shotguns and they returned.  A couple of the people had enough fun and ended up buying Navy arms doubles.  All the nitpicking does is hurt the competition.  The place for a true PC event is almost one of invitation only small gathering.  Our club had a weekend canoe get together for that (they did have to permit fiberglass and aluminum canoes as birchbark were above their mastery).
Most of the PC police in my shooting circuit were PC Walt Disney so I did not pay a lot of attention to them.  One person attended the Western Rondy and commented on how disappointing it was to visit the AMM site as they were so stark.  Did not have all the junk that could be hauled in a pickup.  they had a get toghether with their friends and cooked PC sphagetti. 
Sorry you hit a sore spot.

DP

[FL-Flintlock]

Use of Mid-rib beads go back at least to the percussion days in Europe, not sure about time frame in the USA but they some appeared on both single bbl & dbl bbl high-end guns in the latter percussion era and they became a standard item for pigeon guns from the first days of the cartridge era.  Yes, they can be used as a training aid when a gun is poorly fit to the shooter but when the gun is properly fit to the shooter or the shooter has trained their body to the ill-fitted gun, the mid-rib bead allows for more accurate automation of the body to obtain proper gun and gun-target alignment.  If the shooter does not interface well with the gun, having a mid-rib or rear sight/bead isn’t going to make much of the difference.  If done properly the mid-rib bead is 30-60% smaller than the muzzle-bead depending on placement and desired results of POA vs. POI.  The Spanish made more use of tubular rear sights than others but there was a lot of regional and maker variation that included rear apertures and raised areas, grooves and so forth.  I’m not going to get into “rule thing” except to say that “blanket” rules are simply foolish – just because a particular style or guns from a particular region/maker had or did not have XYZ does not mean that other guns of the same time period followed suit.  Would this shooter have been disqualified for showing up with a HC Spanish matchlock fitted with the HC tubular rear sight or a HC East European musket with a ghost ring rear sight?  People wonder why attendance at shoots is falling off, it’s so much the gas prices as it is the PC-police and especially the ignorant PC-police.  Question for the committee, does any one of them have intimate knowledge of the particular gun in questions as to if it was originally mfg’ed with the mid-rib bead or not?  Was there any standing rule in-place prior to the shoot stating said shoot was limited to certain guns?  If the answer to both questions is “no” then the committee was wrong but is not the damage already done?  

[James Rogers]

Although some may have said it better than others and some may be closer than others I really believe all are saying about the same thing concerning mid beads.
In looking at a very similar topic on another forum it appears that in that instance, the shooting off shot was not involved but the use of single ball was the projectile which may draw differing opinions.
Can the OP expand on this particular situation?

[bgf]

Cynically, I wouldn't worry, as he probably won't be back if he got much sense of this tension from the "committee".  From the HC standpoint, what's the line?  It sounds like this one isn't far off from "correct".  Steel mounted PA rifles, front sights that stick up 1", there's a whole list of things I find historically incorrect, but I don't care if someone else likes them.  I think the real issue, if there is one, is whether it gives him a competitive advantage (maybe with roundball) and if so, is it against the rules as written?  Why didn't they notice this detail at first?  Is it worth fighting over?  What good is going to come out of it?  I certainly wouldn't find the guy out of line if he refused to modify a production gun that otherwise fits the rules.  Let him shoot, and if it becomes obvious that he is winning because of this feature alone, look for a solution such as a handicap (or penalty).  Personally I wouldn't do or say anything about it until he became comfortable in the group and only then if it became a real problem all of the time.

[Roger Fisher]

Ok, so I'll ask, was the match/matches round ball matches or shot (trap) matches??

If round ball matches the rule (NMLRA) is no 'rear' sight above the plane of the barre!

Some boys, crank up the tang screw just above said plane and use it and break the rule at the same time.  Of course, some boys also have 'em rifled part way hmmmbetter not go there.   Good luck with putting oil on the water..

[blunderbuss]

I don't know when they started with them but most all modern guns use them and if one is lining up with it while attempting a moving target  he is probably coming in last anyway.  It can mainly  be used for checking your eye location (rear sight) if you premount the gun for a shot. It will allow one who has a gun that does not quite fit to position themselves. Maybe those would fitted stocks should also be DQ'd?

Many Euro fowling pieces dating to the early eighteenth century have rear wing type sights at the same location.

Are the members of the shoot committee wing shooters?

Really can't see it as an advantage unless the competition includes pot shots like a turkey shoot.

What was that wing thing all about? I've seen those do you know how they worked and who used them? I even saw one on a double barreld pistol

[FL-Flintlock]

Blunderbuss,

The wing works the same as any other rear sight in providing a reference for the eye that's in the sighting plane.  Most people have problems because they want to make the rear sight a focal point when it should not be.