W Allen S X S 12 guage

[Hawken62_flint]

I don't have pictures, but came across an original side by side signed W Allen on the rib between the barrels.  The locks, trigger guard, butt plate, and entry thimble have all been stripped off the gun, but from the inletting, they were all pretty fancy and the trigger guard looked to be about 9 or 10 inches long.  It appears to have been an original flint converted to percussion, but the drums are also missing.  The butt is wide and the shotgun is fairly heavy, but in good shape overall with the exception of all the missing parts.  Does anyone have any information on a W Allen and what time period he might have built guns?  Thanks for any information you can give.

[Feltwad]

Poorboy Flint.

Is the gun of English manufacture if so are there any London or private proof marks .
If the gun is English then I can provide some information.
Feltwad

[JV Puleo]

I'm very curious about this also although, like Feltwad, I suspect its an English gun. I say that because I have a NE rifle signed "W. Allen - 1817" on the barrel. I've never seen another gun with that name on it even though the Allens were a prominent NE gunmaking family. So far, "W. Allen" is a real mystery. One curious thing about my rifle is that the date "1817" is on top of a filled-in dovetail, suggesting that Allen didn't actually make it (or that it was made from a reused barrel) but perhaps repaired it. The gun itself has several unusual characteristics normally associated with another maker, one of the few whose work is reasonably distinctive.

[woodsrunner]

I may be way off center in these comments, but this is what I think is correct with SXS flintlocks.
I have a contemporary made for me by David Dodds, and when we-Dave and I- put the project togather our research showed that most original SXS's available for study were made in England. There were a very small number of makers in New York City in the first quarter of the 1800's that made SXS's, and Dave had an original for study by one of these makers.
Each February at Mel Hankla's Hammer-In in Jamestown, Kentucky, there will be eight-nine beautiful original SXS's on display. These are very high-end pieces that are classic in every respect. To the best of my knowledge-and believe me, I've drooled on each one of 'em, all but one or two were English made and the others French made. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think SXS's were ever produced in the Colonies or early States to any degree.

[JV Puleo]

I absolutely agree. I'd go so far as to say that even those that are believed to be American-made probably aren't, regardless of the names on them. This was the rule, not the exception. Most "believed to be American" high end guns weren't really made here... like the North dueling pistols and "Constable-Phila." pocket pistols. While we can never be sure that no one ever tried to make such a gun here, I think saying that, effectively, there are no American made side-by-side flint doubles, is well within reason. I never thought "W. Allen" made the gun... but since its an English sounding name, I thought it interesting that there is an American "maker" with the same name in the same period. If I had to guess, I'd say he was a merchant of some sort. The rifle I have may have been made by Welcome Mathewson but I am extremely heistant to make attributions on unsigned NE guns.

[Hawken62_flint]

Thanks to all who have answered.  I do not have the W Allen in my possession at this time, but I may be able to own it in the future.  When I looked at it a couple of days ago, it was inside a "not well lighted" building, and I did not think to look for proof marks.  I suspect that those who suggest that it is English are probably correct.  It is not German in looks nor French to my way of thinking, having seen a few of each. If I get further information or get a chance to see it again I will check for proof marks.  Thanks again.

[JV Puleo]

If you do get it, I'd love to see some pictures.
The signature may be etched and not engraved. It is sometimes hard to tell but NE "gunmakers" (I use that term advisedly, as some didn't really make guns) almost always etched their names on barrels - which is why they look so much like their real signatures. They are their real signatures. I've never seen a true English gun (as in intended for the British market) with an etched signature - those always seem to be engraved. This would be a good hint to determine if its an English gun sold by an American retailer... which is what I strongly suspect it is.

[Feltwad]

Presuming that if the gun is of English manufacture and of the period 1780 -1820 records show that there were several Allens working in Birmingham, those that were of the period of the gun were gun lock makers, barrel makers, and also stockers it is not till 1860 that a gun maker is listed and that was William Allen 1860 -66 12 Loveday St Birmingham.
The only gun maker  named William Allen of that period was a provincial gun maker who worked in the market town of Penrith in Cumberland England. I have examined and worked on several guns by this maker  his sxs were of top quality but he also made a lesser grade of gun known as Keepers gun or work gun. There appears to be different spellings of the name, some trade directories list him has Allon for Allen it is also  engraved on the Locks . I enclose images of a s/b Allon gun which is a flintlock conversion
Feltwad

[Hawken62_flint]

Thanks for posting the pictures Feltwad.  Since the gun that I looked at has no locks, I have no idea if they were stamped or engraved with the makers name, but the W Allen on the barrel rib is (I believe) engraved in wide block letters.  The lock mortises are really long with a pointed tail if I remember correctly.  Will have to wait to see if I can acquire it.