Lock for Tenn rifle

[marcusb]

I have decided on a straight 40 caliber barrel for my simple mountain rifle thanks to the input I gained here. I come to the next fork in the road. Which lock would be ideal for this combo. I have a small siler in percussion I had planned to round the tail on to look like a later lock but would rather have a flint lock to be honest. Any suggestion what would be a good flintlock for a plain rifle iron mounted?

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Chambers Late Ketland, RE Davis Late English ...........

[Bill of the 45th]

Marcus, As Dr. Tim said the Chambers late Ketland is the most used by those knowledgable, both for a correct style lock(English), and for reliability, which for a newbie is important.  There are others out their, like the Durs Egg that will work.  I would recommend, you call Chambers direct if that becomes your choice, that way you will be sure to get a Chambers, as not all of them out their are assembled by them.  Cost is about the same for all these.

Bill

[Ken G]

I'd suggest a Chambers Late Ketland lock with the tail rounded off for authentic looks, reliability, customer service.  The Davis Late English is another good choice but for the money I'd still go with the Chambers lock unless I just wanted the looks of the square tail and vee looking pan.   

[greybeard]

late ketland hands down.

[J. Talbert]

I can't disagree with the choice of Chambers Late Ketland for style or quality.  Chambers locks are what I use, almost exclusively.  But since you mentioned that you are using a STRAIGHT barrel, I'll throw this in.  I believe the M&G lock from R.E. Davis has a wider bolster which helps with the wrist architecture when using a straight barrel.  It gives you a little more width to work with, and even give you the option to file a taper on the bolster if desired to create that flare at the rear of the lock panels.
However, style wise it's not as good a choice for the traditional Tenn. rifle.  You need decide whether the lock choice or the wrist architecture a bigger deal to you.

Jeff

[marcusb]

Thanks for the input guys, looks like its a Late Ketland hands down.

I will look Mr Chambers up this weekend at Friendship, I bet they will have some there.


Thats a good point on the bolster thickness, are the Tenn style guns generally narrow in the wrist or do there locks flair to the back like sawmped guns? I chose the tenn style to try to keep it as simple as possible to hopefull end up with a decent gun, but would like to keep it as correct as my limits allow.

Thanks

Marcus

[G-Man]

In general, most East Tennessee guns of the 1830-50 era (i.e. what most people think of when they think of the classic Tennessee rife) have the wrist a bit taller than it is wide.  I think a lot of contemporary guns are made today with really exaggerated flare and wrists that are too wide.

I have seen some Tennessee rifles with very skinny wrists (skinny at the top and bottom - almost football shaped in cross section), and some that are  almost rectangular in cross section as well.  However, I think that the ones with some of the most pleasing architecure (in my opinion) have wrists that when viewed in cross section, tend to have a rounded top and then beginning about midway down the side of the wrist really taper in toward the narrow toe on the bottom.  This tapering in at the toe sort of undercuts the lower portion of the rear lock and sideplate panels, and accentuates the way these features visually stand out - but in reality, they don't have a lot of extra width to the wood - it is more visual.  The way these panels stand out visually is also accentuated on some rifles by by dishing out a concave groove on either side of the barrel tang, above the lock and sideplate panels. 

Here is a well known East Tennessee rifle known as "the Carter Valley rifle" that sold recently in the Cowan's auction.   This is actucally a pretty slender little rifle with very fine architecture.  The barrel appears to have been cut, perhaps at the time Hacker Martin worked on the barrel.  But it has great lines and you can perhaps see some of the features we are discussing:

http://www.cowanauctions.com/auctions/item.aspx?ItemId=92737


You can, with careful shaping, get a very nice shape to the wrist even with a straight barrel.  I have seen some fabulous guns made with straight 3/4 inch barrels - it is just a matter of proportioning and shaping everything correctly.

Just my opinion, but I don't like tapering the bolster to kick the tail of the lock outward on a skinny gun.  You are also pulling the nose of the lock, the frizzen, the pan cover and the nose of the mainspring in, all of which present issues with architecture, fit, and  function that must then be dealt with.   

Good luck

Guy

[bgf]

Guy,
Well said; I was half typing something half as good -- glad you are faster .  I don't think there's much flare or kick at all to the lock panels even on the early mountain rifles, due to the very gradual taper of the barrel -- if any at all in the breech area.  The taper and flare on the modern A and B swamps in particular is almost cartoonish looking to me, although it may be correct for some rifles.  If space is really needed (for lock clearance or aesthetics), spacers on the side flats might be better solution than filing taper on bolster.  Bob Harn did a neat little rifle on the blog w/a 3/4" barrel where he sleeved the first few inches at the breech, which is similar concept.  See it here: http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2010/09/bob-harn-rifle.html
I saw it and had the opportunity to meet him at Norris, and there is nothing wrong at all with it!

[Ken G]

Guy,
Good advice and observations.  Thanks for posting. 
I haven't seen many with the flare we are talking about because the swamp was much less than today.   I think we have to keep in mind a lot of originals, even straight barreled ones, had barrels that were a little larger than 1" at the breech.  That makes it easier to have a wide wrist.  Wide is a bad word really.  More like a wrist almost as wide as tall as Guy said.   Like Guy said, with a little careful shaping you can get something very pleasing and authentic looking without getting too bogged down to use contemporary made barrels and locks. 
You can compensate for a thinner wrist due to barrel size by shaving some off the belly all the way to the entry pipe.  To the point where your trigger guard final breaks into the ram rod hole.  That will make it a little more proportional. 

[Dennis Glazener]

Bob Harn did a neat little rifle on the blog w/a 3/4" barrel where he sleeved the first few inches at the breech, which is similar concept.  See it here: http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2010/09/bob-harn-rifle.html
I saw it and had the opportunity to meet him at Norris, and there is nothing wrong at all with it!

I agree that the way Bob did this rifle is neat! Had never seen one done this way but it really looks good. I also agree with BGF Bob's a great guy and builds beautiful rifles, he's also one of our ALR members!
Dennis

[marcusb]

Great looking rifle, thanks for the link,!
It looks the the forearm tapers from the entry thimble back to the trigger guard? Seems opposite of what I have seen on modern guns.

[Bill of the 45th]

Marcus, first forget every thing you know about modern guns when building these.  It will get you in trouble.  Second, when you get to Friendship, and the Chambers booth  avoid Barbie, and her smoooth tongue. unless you have deep pockets, she could sell sand in the Sahara, or ice to Eskimos.  Last time all I wanted was a single Late Ketland, but ended up with three different locks.

Bill

[marcusb]

Thanks for the warning ! 

[G-Man]

Marcus - you are correct -that rifle is actually slightly thicker (when viewed from the side) at the entry thimble than it is under the lock mortice.  They really took the undersides of the lock mortice area down thin - sometimes very flat looking - on a lot of these guns in this style. I would guess possibly the entry thimble was installed before they did their final shaping and inletting in the trigger/ triggerguard area in this case.  Anyway, it sounds like it would look awkward, but in this case the architecture works and has a certain charm to it.  Actually, the architecture on this rifle is one of my favorite examples of an East Tennessee rifle.  There are literally hundreds out there, but a few just really grab you and stand out from the rest.  

(BTW - scroll through the first 200 lots or so in that auction catalog - there were a lot of nice longrifles, including a lot of southern pieces, in that auction.)

Some southern rifles, like the Jacob Young "Woodfork" rifle, actually taper a bit as you move forward toward the entry thimble, then there is a very subtle flare in thickness as you get close to the entry pipe.   You see this on a lot of Hershel's rifles too, as Jacob Young was a big influence on his work.

Some people assume that these features are just the result of saddle wear (which you do see on some rifles) but not so on these examples - the guns were built that way.  In the case of the Carter Valley Rifle, it could simply be the result of the builder inletting the triggers and guard after he already had the entry thimble inlet and forend thickness there already determined, and decided to just go with it - no muss, no fuss - and blend it in by tapering the line out to the entry pipe.  In the case of Jacob Young, it appears to be more pre-planned as an architectural element.