Bag tools, Pliers

[KNeilson]

Ive seen pictures of tool sets ( both new and antique) that include a brush/pick/turnscrew, also a small hammer for flint knapping and/or combinations of the same. But, I cant seem to find an image of a set of pliers or tongs, or what may have been considered correct for the time period (18+19 cent). Can anyone answer how common a gripping type of tool was to carry back in the day, or I would love to see a pic if such a item did exsist. I can imagine either typical pliers/tongs types or something hinged like a nut-cracker, maybe also a secondary use for a old scissors type ball mold..just thinking out loud......   Kerry

[nc_cooter]

Haven't seen any pics of 18th century pliers, but here's a pic of some I forged yesterday to use in my kit. The 7' pair is made from 3/8" round and the 5 1/2" from 5/16" round.

 Mike

[Artificer]

Remembering the old adage of "never say never," the use of a pair of pliers in an 18th century shooting pouch was very uncommon to non existant, as I have been informed by very knowledgeable people.  That doesn't mean a person couldn't carry one if they wanted to, though. 

Pliers in the 18th century ranged from very crudely made ones to nicely made small blacksmith tongs to pliers that are still available today.  I have a pair of original needle nose pliers that were fairly nicely made, but still hand forged, and they could easily go into the 18th century - though I think they were made in the 19th century.  I also have found modern pliers, often made in Europe, that are the exact same pattern as those made in the 18th century. 

While visiting the gun shop at Colonial Williamsburg, they showed me what they use to document all sorts of tools for their works.  Diderot's Encyclopedia in the Iron Working section is great, but the VERY best book on 18th century hand tools they suggested is A Catalogue of Tools For Watch And Clock Makers,  John Wyke of Liverpool   Almost any kind of hand tool a gunsmith or many folks working in the metal trades is listed.  I can’t say enough about this book. 

http://www.thebestthings.com/books/wyke.htm

OK, so you asked for some pictures. 

This has GOT to be one of the fanciest set of pliers I have ever seen and from the 17th / 18th century.  :

http://users.wpi.edu/~jforgeng/CollectionIQP/artifact.pl?anum=1260

Here is a set of reproduction tongs made for use in a bag whe you scroll down the page:

http://www.olddominionforge.com/other.html

Here is a set of box joint pliers that could have come right out of John Wyke’s catalogue.  (I found a set just like these and didn’t pay much for them.  You may be surprised just how many box joint pliers you can still find that are correct for the period because they didn’t change them much, if at all.)

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general-archive/slightly-ot-box-joint-pliers-96004/

Now, in this link, I found a REAL treat.  Scroll down to the post by old-biker-uk with three pin vices and what looks like flat leg pliers.  These actually ARE 18th century pliers/cramp that were used in many trades and listed in many shapes and sizes in John Wyke’s catalogue.  I had never seen a real one before I found that link. 

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-history/fantastic-early-hand-vise-207228/

Hope this will be of some help.
Gus

[nc_cooter]

The pliers I made were not intended for my shooting bag. The small pliers will be added to my repair kit along with the scrap leather pieces, needles, thread, twine, etc. The larger will be used in my forge.
Mike

[KNeilson]

Mike, Gus, Thx for the replys.  Gus, your statement..

Remembering the old adage of "never say never," the use of a pair of pliers in an 18th century shooting pouch was very uncommon to non existant, as I have been informed by very knowledgeable people

is the sort of info I havent been told or managed to read about yet. Ive asked around but nothing as definative, thx for the education. Also thx for the links. I just love seeing pics of such things. My grandpa was an amateur watchmaker, and I have most of his tools.I actually have a set very similar to whats on Wykes Catalogue and several hand vises too altho not quite as ornate. Funny, I have a copy of ""Decorative Antique Ironwork, A Pictorial Treasury" also and pour over this kinda stuff as pictured...  IMOHO, the very odd or fortunate fellow may have had tools as pictured, something that would be a part of the equipment of his trade maybe. But the regular old Joe lets say, if anything, what might have he had? This is what I really meant..
Mike, what you showed is sorta along the lines of what I was thinking. What a person may have got if they went to a country Blacksmith and said " I need a little tool like you hold your iron with." Having something in possesion like this makes sense to me but Ive never really studied it so close.. I enjoy forging as a hobby and have made similar items. Lately I have received requests for "bag pliers", which was what got me started down this path
A concern I had with all of this was being "PC" , as that seems to matter when offering something for barter or trade..I think I`ll be happier if I can give a guy a tool that will make his day better when its not going so well.....thx again ........Kerry

[Artificer]

Sounds like somthing like the pliers shown down this page may be what you are looking for.  These are made so they can grip small rounded objects or small flat oblects as well. 

http://www.olddominionforge.com/other.html

You are most welcome.
Gus

[KNeilson]

Heres what I came up with so far. The next pair I may shape the middle area of the jaws to grip a round surface like a stuck ramrod. The coin is a quarter for scale........   Kerry

[Black Hand]

Heres what I came up with so far. The next pair I may shape the middle area of the jaws to grip a round surface like a stuck ramrod. The coin is a quarter for scale........   Kerry

Those are very nice!
Albert

[Artificer]

Heres what I came up with so far. The next pair I may shape the middle area of the jaws to grip a round surface like a stuck ramrod. The coin is a quarter for scale........   Kerry

Kerry,

I really like the basic duckbill design and it was very popular even in the early 18th century.  For your first set of pliers, you did very well.

Please understand I am only trying to give constructive suggestions.  When I first looked at the picture, the first thing that came to mind was 1930/40's pliers from looking at the gripping area and the large rivet.  Pliers during the 18th and early 19th century usually had smaller rivets in them.  The other thing that makes these pliers look too late is the rectangular shape of the grips.  Generally speaking, 18th century pliers would have been more rounded on at least the outside edges, if not the inside edges like the pliers shown in this link:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general-archive/slightly-ot-box-joint-pliers-96004/

With some modifications to make them more period, I think you are well on your way to make bang up period pliers. 
Gus

[KNeilson]

Albert, Gus, thx for the replys.....  Gus, thx for the critic, just the sort of thing I am looking for. I make my own tongs for forging, and was really just scaling them down a bit so far. What I was trying to do (with this pair) was see what I could come up with with just hammer and file while not investing too much time. I kinda cheated by drilling the pivot as opposed to punching and drifting. Another thought I had was to make them slim as too not take up too much space, which is why the grips are shaped concave as opposed to convex. Next pair also will have less mass forwards of the rivet. Like you suggest, more rounded on the outside surfaces and I also agree on the rivet. Its acually a small dia rivet with a large upset head, I`ll try countersinking and filing flush one. Several minds can look at one object and interpret in different ways depending on lifes experience, Thx for lending me a bit of yours......  Kerry

[Artificer]

Albert, Gus, thx for the replys.....  Gus, thx for the critic, just the sort of thing I am looking for. I make my own tongs for forging, and was really just scaling them down a bit so far. What I was trying to do (with this pair) was see what I could come up with with just hammer and file while not investing too much time. I kinda cheated by drilling the pivot as opposed to punching and drifting. Another thought I had was to make them slim as too not take up too much space, which is why the grips are shaped concave as opposed to convex. Next pair also will have less mass forwards of the rivet. Like you suggest, more rounded on the outside surfaces and I also agree on the rivet. Its acually a small dia rivet with a large upset head, I`ll try countersinking and filing flush one. Several minds can look at one object and interpret in different ways depending on lifes experience, Thx for lending me a bit of yours......  Kerry

Kerry, 

I am not a blacksmith, but I admire blacksmiths and understand some of the techniques.  Once you use a rivet with a double head, I’m not sure anyone could tell you drilled the hole for it rather than hot punched it. 

I am afraid I was not entirely clear about the size of rivet earlier.  I meant the size of the head was a bit too large, but I’m glad you seemed to understand that.  You can still use double headed rivets and be absolutely correct, though, just with smaller heads.  I ran across a pair of needle nose pliers about 15 years ago at a yard sale or flea market.  They are hand forged with small head rivets.  They could have been made 20 to 250 years before I got them.  The seller was surprised I was so pleased with “an old $ 2.00 pair of pliers” and could not understand why I wanted them over “more modern” pliers for about $ 4.00.  I mention these pliers as your pliers are not that different from them, though your pliers are duckbill and the grips are not as rounded.   

The box pliers from the practical machinist link I posted looked rather strange to me when I was first looking in Wyck’s Catalogue at the engravings of them.  It finally dawned on me that the jaws were short of shaped like needle nose pliers out towards the outside edges, but flared to a duckbill pattern just before they came together.  I can only assume they were made that way to save on costs of iron/steel.  However, a couple months later on EBay, there was the exact same style of box pliers I was able to buy for about $ 6.00 plus shipping because no one else knew (or maybe cared) it was a correct 18th century style.  I couldn’t tell when I bid on them, but even the cross hatching where the jaws came together had been filed by hand.  They are a rather small set of pliers only a little over 4” long, so I assume they were clock makers or jewelry makers pliers, though the cross hatching may have been added after they were made or were not for most jewelry work.. They are such a dandy little pair of pliers that I enjoy using them in gun work.  I’ve thought about carrying them in my shooting pouch as well, but I’m a bit concerned about losing them.  . 
Gus