Author Topic: TEAK OIL  (Read 16182 times)

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9886
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: TEAK OIL
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2011, 05:25:33 PM »
Many years ago I purchased a "New England Target Rifle" from John Bivins made by Joseph Tonk of Boston, MA. Prior to the purchase John stated that the rifle had an original finish that had never completely dried after over 120 years.
John added that he thought that the finish on the rifle was that on several violins he had examined. The rifle was just fine to shoot and gave no indication of being soft until you placed the rifle into a gun case and upon retrieval the egg crate impressions were all over the stock. Over an hour or so they would disappear and you cold not tell they had been there.
According to John the rifle was made around 1858(?). It has a FM with a starter for a sugar loaf bullet. I had Richard Hoch make a Pope style mold and it shot 10 ring accuracy at 100 meters.
Anyone have any idea about the finish? Just curious.

Sounds like a raw oil of some type. Before plastic guns raw linseed was the US miltary's stock finish. Wolf Droege told me that Auto Ordnance then making the semi-auto Thompsons had a big vat they put to stocks in to soak, I suspect this is how 03s, M1s etc were finished as well. Wolf thought it was motor oil but I suspect it was raw linseed.
I don't consider this a proper finish for a civilian arm. It will continue to come out of the wood for decades.
It also is a duller finish than varnish or BLO which will shine just from handling, raw won't at least not nearly to the extent of BLO.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9886
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: TEAK OIL
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2011, 05:26:25 PM »
I found 21 different possibilities for the abbreviation IIRC. But I still can't understand why a reference to early Roman history and linseed oil dryers has to do with a modern contemporary builder wondering about Teak Oil as a sealer. I think I'll go research the history of shipbuilding. And try to understand why Teak Wood was prized and used.

It has a high oil content.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9886
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: TEAK OIL
« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2011, 10:05:45 PM »
I found 21 different possibilities for the abbreviation IIRC. But I still can't understand why a reference to early Roman history and linseed oil dryers has to do with a modern contemporary builder wondering about Teak Oil as a sealer. I think I'll go research the history of shipbuilding. And try to understand why Teak Wood was prized and used.

Roman history has more to do with LR making than Teak oil I think.
There was a mention of how long Teak oil had been in use. Probably is Asia which is of course irrelevant.
So I thought I would mention that linseed has quite a history too.
It never ceases to amaze me that people will go to great lengths to recreate an American ML rifle of the 18th or 19th century. Study the carving and how it was done. Perhaps get all wadded up over the way the wood was final smoothed, agonize over the alloy of inlays or the castings.
Then put on anything that is handy for stain or a stock finish. Just because it has some  "big name" on it does not mean its proper or even a GOOD IDEA from the durability standpoint.

To be honest some of this stuff was used though IGNORANCE, not stupidity the knowledge was largely lost. The workings of nitrate of iron stains were either completely unknown or they were not used properly.  I used all sorts of silly stuff on ML stocks years back. Some of it worked wonderfully bit crayons melted into hot BLO, while it makes a very good finish from the DURABILTY standpoint its hardly a a proper finish for a Hawken or a long rifle.
But it possible to recreate different colors though the maker might need to buy a number of boxes of crayons the get the volume of color needed.

Chemical stains from various sources were used. A friend made hundreds of rifles and used a Wampler chemical stain a great deal it  was very color fast and gave pretty good color. He used Sherwin-Williams  "Beauty Loc" (sic) for finish. Looked good and worked good, but it was not right.
We have products instigated by big names who needed something that worked fast and probably did not really understand the old time finishes. A friend who does know old finishes says that history was rewritten, by the same guy, to make the stuff he wanted to use acceptable, even though it was plastic. He even wrote articles to this effect.

It does not really matter what people finish stocks with but this site should provide information concerning traditional materials and processes within reason. Its hard to expect everyone to use skelp welded barrels and stock blanks sawn with a pit saw. But there are  things that can easily be done that work as well and usually better and easier than some of the new and improved stuff but there may be a learning curve since the old time stuff was not made in the 20th century to be used by anyone with the money to buy it in Wally World.
Its impossible to buy BLO from Wally World and have it dry in a reasonable time on a gunstock. Thats not what it was made for. BLO made for gunstock finish is processed differently than the hardware store stuff.
Its much thicker, its usually darker and it dries faster since the processing and the additions improve drying and often hardness.
I have advocated the use of the Grumbachers Painting Medium III as an addition. This is an easy way for anyone who has some home cooked BLO to make a very water resistant stock finish that will stand being out in the weather for months with no significant change in appearance (all fall and winter in the back yerd).  Its probably 95%+ "correct" in materials but like almost very thing we use today its a compromise to some extent.
Its easy to use and durable, if some real iron pigment burnt Sienna or Burnt Umber oil colors are cooked in a darker varnish  can be made that if not thinned will make a varnish finish that does not soak in and will make  cover scraper marks so they largely disappear. 
I found this very interesting though it was a small scale test.
But shop made oils and varnishes takes more trouble to make than unscrewing a lid though and this could be a "deal killer" for some folks.
But in my experience and what I read here the old finishes consume far less labor when finishing a stock to the making is time well spent.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6538
  • I Like this hat!!
Re: TEAK OIL
« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2011, 10:40:39 PM »
Tung oil: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tung_oil from the Tung nut

Teak Oil:  From the MSDS:  http://watco.net/CBGResourceCenter.asp
Chemical Name
CAS Number Weight % LessThan ACGIH TLV-TWA ACGIH TLV-STEL OSHA PEL-TWA OSHA PEL CEILING VM&P
Naphtha 64742-89-8 40.0 N.E. N.E. N.E. N.E.
Mineral Spirits 8052-41 -3 15.0 100 ppm N.E. 500 ppm N.E.
Aromatic Petroleum Distillates 64742-95-6 5.0 N.E. N.E. N.E. N.E.

Teak oil is an oil sold to treat teak furniture etc...... Wikipedia says it has no real impact. Teak takes care of itself.
De Oppresso Liber
Marietta, GA

Liberty is the only thing you cannot have unless you are willing to give it to others. – William Allen White

Learning is not compulsory...........neither is survival! - W. Edwards Deming

Offline FL-Flintlock

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2176
    • Fire & Iron Mfg.
Re: TEAK OIL
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2011, 07:47:52 PM »
I had second thoughts about even posting a reply here but this is getting to the point of being utterly embarrassing already.

All this talk of “historically correct” or “period correct” then total disregard of history in favor of sales hype and/or modern myth/misconception.

“Teak oil” is nothing more than a marketing term – it means “oil used on Teak wood” not that the oil comes from Teak wood.  Teak is naturally resistant to environmental exposure but, as with other environmental resistant woods, it will not survive indefinitely on its own and therefore requires routine maintenance and thus is origin of “Teak oil” – oil used to maintain Teak wood.  A bit of historical fact investigation will quickly reveal that Chinawood oil (a/k/a Tung oil) is the original “Teak oil” and digging a little further, one will find that Tung oil was available in the colonies but it wasn’t used because of the excessive cost.  Plenty of historical proof exists to support the fact that business in the colonial days was no different than business of today – cost was, and still is, a major manufacturing concern and businesses cut corners back in the day just the same as they still do today.  Gun & furniture makers would not pay the price serious professional artistic painters were willing to pay for the premium Chinawood oil.  Linseed oil, being readily available from domestic sources, was far cheaper than Chinawood oil, however, gun makers were not stupid, many were very much aware of the fact that Linseed oil did not perform as well as Chinawood oil and such is why they took to using pine tar under or within the Linseed oil ... likely picked up from the boatmakers who were constantly in search of better performance – ever hear the term “tar heels” and wonder where it came from?  History answers all questions if anyone bothers to take the time to look and/or accept the facts without twisting them into myth because of business or personal bias.  How much historical fact is lost when one ignores the fact that other oils, Sunflower, Safflower and Hemp to name a few, were also in-use in the colonial period.  Is it so easy to dismiss the connection between Roman history that was influenced by input from all areas of the Roman empire as well as the surrounding regions and the effect those influences had throughout the whole of Europe?  Is it so easy to also dismiss Egyptian, African, Middle Eastern and Asian history which all influenced European and colonial history?  Are we willing to dismiss the Norwegian history as well even though it is such that gave rise to the Tar Heels of the American colonies?  The world has not remain stagnant and if one attempts to claim that the knowledge of one people or region did not affect or influence others then such is attempting to claim history never happened.  How does explain technology and the associated products were known of from Europe to Asia and even across much of the Northmen territories if not for the existence of trade caravans?  If one were to believe such isolationist nonsense, then one must argue that the longrifle would never have come about because the knowledge of gun powder would never had made it from Asia to Europe.

Much ado is often made about the furniture makers yet history shows they were more concerned about how quickly they could get something finished and out the door for the lowest cost than worrying about the durability of the finish.  Thus, the birth of the beeswax/Linseed oil blend; why use straight Linseed when one could simply add a some oil to the much cheaper beeswax and wipe a finish on and get the work out the door much faster?  Yep, it was all about the money ... surprise, surprise, surprise.  And, just in case anyone is wondering, the modern myths about the water/moisture resistance of bees and other waxes, the facts about waxes were well known many centuries before the advent of the longrifle or any other gun for that matter ... yep, that’s that whole history thing showing it’s ugly head again because the failures of waxes to produce water-proof/resistant finishes was known back to at least the 4th or 5th century B.C.  

No offense Doc but I’m glad you referenced wiki-agenda/wiki-myth and someone else referenced “ehow-not-to” - one will note that much of the alleged “information” (and I use that term with the extreme limits of looseness) is either agenda-driven or worthless stuff that isn’t even worthy of being called “bull manure”.  One must take the sources of alleged “information” into account before accepting the validity of it.  How many times can one find references to water and moisture protection yet the suppliers of said information are associated with the production of competitive products – that’s not to discount the worthlessness of alleged independent studies where the conductors of said studies are skewed by their funding source and/or utterly ignorant to the facts.  Reference two such studies conducted by so-called “centers of learning and education” where the alleged “Tung oil” used in the studies was not “pure Tung oil” but rather a “manufactured semi-synthetic wiping varnish” containing only a small amount of cheap low-grade solvent-extracted Tung oil.  Dig a little more and you’ll find some true independent studies that are conducted properly and in those you’ll find that Tung oil rates far higher in moisture resistance than most manufactured finish products including full & semi synthetic.  Is there any wonder why a fellow who designs and builds custom sailing vessels with price tags starting around $15 million sources certified pure Tung oil and does the thermal processing in-house?  Does anyone ever wonder why a particular “oil gun stock finish” product sold at most retailers contains “less than 3% modified Linseed oil” and greater than 96% petroleum distillates and synthetics.  How about the product labeled as “Spar Oil Varnish” that contains “Stoddard solvent, petroleum distillates, synthetic resin” ... where’s the “oil” part of the “Spar Oil”?

About the myths and misconceptions about where oils come from and how they’re extracted ...
“Cold pressed” is no longer a valid grading term for natural oil and hasn’t been for more than about 80 years.  Traditionally the term was used to identify higher grades of oil that were not extracted using heat or steam.  In modern times the highest grade oil is “First-press” or the first-pressing as subsequent pressings and solvent-extraction of the lower grades of oil.  In modern times, most all extraction processes are done without heat or “cold” and such is why “cold pressed” is no longer a valid description for any oil. Solvent-extraction typically follows the first-pressing and produces the lowest grade of oil, the process is used because it's the fastest and cheapest extraction method.  One will also note that any certified oil will be supplied with a certificate of test results for the given batch being shipped, if the oil you’re buying does not come with the testing certificate, you have no idea what you’re getting – secondary note, you’re not going to find certified oil at any common retail outlet, certified oil is only available from a limited number of premium product suppliers and you’re probably going to get sticker-shock when you see the prices.

The traditional method of extracting nut/seed oils was to crack or chop the fruit then extract the oil using a wooden driven wedge press.  As time progressed, driven wedge presses were replaced with single-stroke screw presses, the resultant waste from both processes was then heated, boiled or steamed to extract most of the remaining oil but thermal extraction processes were being phased out before WWII and have ceased following WWII.  Modern mass-production processing utilizes continuous feed extrusion screw presses and/or centrifugal turbine extractors although it is still possible to obtain premium oil extracted via the traditional wedge/single-stroke screw press methods.  Contrary to the completely incorrect statements, Teak oil does NOT come from Teak trees!  Ignorance of such magnitude would suggest Danish oil comes from Danishes

or perhaps from Dane’s?


Considering such stupid statements, would anyone care to make the claim that colored chicken eggs come from the backside of the Easter Bunny?

Oh, and BTW, how about doing some research before you reach for that can of Turpentine in the big box or hardware store because you may be surprised to find out that it doesn’t contain any real Turpentine.

Mark
« Last Edit: July 05, 2011, 07:51:47 PM by FL-Flintlock »
The answers you seek are found in the Word, not the world.

Offline bob in the woods

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4555
Re: TEAK OIL
« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2011, 09:29:50 PM »
Everything you've said is pretty much in line with my thinking, Mark. If I don't make my own finish, I rely on products like " Tried and True ", since I believe /trust their products as being what they advertise.
As I said, people will use what they believe works for them, and I'm as stubborn as anyone when it comes to making a change.I just want to stay away from petroleum distillates/solvents .

g rummell

  • Guest
Re: TEAK OIL
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2011, 11:10:22 PM »
I've been using Teak Oil for a number of years.
The number of coats and the application process will determine the amount of sheen you will get.
All the rifles below were finished with Teak Oil.