A Fool and His Money are soon Parted

[Gunnermike]

I was perusing the GB Auction yesterday, as I am slightly immobile from a back surgery on Friday, and found an interesting auction. 

There are 21 bids and the current bid is $1793, the description is ".62 caliber musket with Tower lock and bayonet".  The pity of it is that the gun that has 21 bids is an Indian Copy of a 1805 Baker Rifle.  There is even a photo of the muzzle showing a shiny smooth bore. (Bakers are rifled)  So I guess that if you really have to have that "so & so" antique, you had better be sure it really is what it is and not what you think it is.  This is a real shame. 

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=238599820

Mike (wounded in the back)

[JV Puleo]

That is astonishing... I wouldn't have thought it possible. But it has been "antiqued"!
At this point I almost don't feel sorry for the buyer.

[Shreckmeister]

I feel sorry for him.  He didn't do his homework, but probably didn't realize
he needed to.  He may have some motivation to have such a rifle.  It's a pity.

[Bill of the 45th]

The dealer, is a very reputable firm, but they have little if no knowledge of antique ARMS.  They specialize in modern arms and probably have no idea of what they are selling, thinking it is original.  Didn't check when the auction is over but will let them know.  They, nor the buyer needs the grief.

Bill

[Eric Krewson]

For a gun that looks like it has been through a war or two it appears to have accumulated only one strike on the frizen.

[Mike Brooks]

The screw slots aren't buggered either. Otherwise a very nice job of antiqueing.

[Dphariss]

Buyer might be a reenactor with more money than sense who wants an antiqued Baker and don't CARE if its real or not.

Fraud is why I dislike antiquing firearms, far too often someone get burned. The makers intent is irrelevant. I know a guy who bought one of his own "antiqued" articles back as an original once. Then returned it to the owner during the inspection period. The person who bought it originally KNEW it was new made, it was SIGNED, but someone still got badly burned probably at least 1000 bucks worth if not more.

The con man type likes to put up the "let the buyer beware" defense (there are others) but this is just the con man trying to justify his nefarious actions.


Dan

[Daryl]

Got a real nice chunk of tubing on that smooth 'rifle'.  It's the same gun, make, etc,  sold at Heritage in Ontario & probably Middlesex Arms in the States.  Good job of intentional fraud. Could have made some angled scrathes in the muzzle to look like rifling, though. Would maybe have fooled more people - higher bids?

I've read that wasn't unheard of, in Tenn, or Kentucky in the 18th or 19th century. Fraud is nothing new.

[Fullstock longrifle]

Probably worth the $99.99 the bidding started at, but definitely not worth $1793.00

FK

[Roger B]

I sent the seller a message outlining the problems with this gun & suggested that uneducated buyers might be mislead. Note that he doesn't say this is an original Baker rifle.  I suggested that he should probably pull this listing & relist the gun with a more detailed description since I am sure he does not want to appear to be less than reputable.  I even gave him the name of the maker & directed him to MB for his ad.  He never answered me & added that the gun is a smoothbore on the listing.  The guy is a crook, period.
Roger B.

[cable]

actually there are several other guns for sale there that look as though the have been antiqued, but actually do not look very old to me.....unless they have been heavily refinished in the past.  take a look at the other items for sale from their listings.   
perhaps someone placed all these with them 'on consignment'? 

[Bill of the 45th]

Actually Roger B.  I also contacted them, and got the answer that as a dealer they don't generally deal in these type of guns, beyond TC's, and Lymans.  He took them in trade, and posted tons of pic's for a buyer to decide, and made no statement as to whether they were antiques or not.  He didn't know it was a Baker, let alone a replica.  he made no such claims, beyond it being a flintlock.  He is a very high volume reputable dealer, has more than 50,000 guns in inventory, and tries his best to be honest.  I have purchased a number of guns from them over the years, mostly shotguns, and a few handguns.  He probably didn't respond because he was conferring with a number of others, and I also referred him to the sites you did as well.

Bill

[oakridge]

After finally looking at this auction listing, I agree with Bill 100%. This guy makes no claims whatsoever in his description other than it being a flintlock, barrel length, smoothbore and Tower lock. And it is listed under the category Firearms/Collectable/Blackpowder/Muzzleloader. No claims anywhere to it being an antique. One thing for sure - whoever buys the gun can't return it claiming it was mis-described.

[Roger B]

I agree guys, crook was too strong a word.  OTOH, reputable doesn't quite fit either.  If I were in his position, I would change the listing to read that this is a modern copy of  a Baker rifle that is artificially aged to appear antique.  But then I've had the opportunity to buy things at very low prices from people who didn't know the value of what they had, & instead, told them the true value. I have to live with myself.  Before he knew the truth of the matter his listing was fine, but now that he does, his listing is not acceptable.  Accuracy counts. I guess that's probably why I fix babies instead of sell things for a living.  I won't be buying anything from him.
Roger B.

[Whitedog]

Well, it sold for $2,725.00 to somebody who had more money than sense.

[tuffy]

I feel that this guy was given the opportunity to notify the bidders and cancel the auction, then relist the gun as what it really is. I also feel that given the opportunity this guy would become a slum lord. Just my nickle.

[JTR]

I don't agree with false advertising either, or taking undue advantage. But this guy didn't describe the gun as an antique, didn't call it any brand name, or any other thing that is false.

And since when have most used gun dealers done anything more or less than this guy did?

Remember that old saw about Buyer Beware? 
Bought a used car lately?

Personally I think the right thing to do would be to re-list the item. Obviously this seller doesn't think so. Obviously the buyer didn't do his homework either.

I'm still waiting for something that I bought here,,,,, go figure!
John

[satwel]

Here is another auction where he did the same thing. He makes no claims that this Brown Bess is antique. It is a repro of an India Pattern (Third Model) Brown Bess Musket that was made in India and has been antiqued to make it appear old. When purchased new, these muskets cost between $450 and $500. According to the auction site, this antiqued repro musket sold for $1,650.

Let the buyer beware!!!


http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=238595571

[SPG]

This is fraud, plain and simple.

As soon as the gun was "aged" it was possible to be misrepresented. It is being misrepresented now by the seller who knows that the gun is a repro.

No excuse for this.

Steve

[alsask]

I was actually looking for a [real] Baker rifle a few years ago and the only one I saw they wanted $5800 for it.  This was without a ramrod or bayonet.

I looked at the Indian copies and they were charging more for them than you would pay for a Lyman and the barrel wasn't even rifled.  I was suspicious of the way they were built as well.

[JV Puleo]

I agree wholeheartedly with SPG. Semantics cannot excuse the "lies of omission" that this add, and the one for the faked up India pattern musket, present. Perhaps the first seller was unaware the gun was a fake at the beginning but he was clearly made aware of the situation before the gun was sold. It may be legal but it isn't honest or ethical. If this is representative of his ethics, I would not believe a word of any of his advertisements.

Also, the perception that "all gun dealers" do this is very unfair to the honest ones. At the last Baltimore show a friend and I were asked to examine an early British carbine that a prominent dealer had just bought. We were able to tell him the gun, while old, had spurious (and completely wrong) markings and that we thought that the lock had been very expertly replaced (read that "restored" in some people's lexicon). He immediately took it off his table and, though not happy about the situation, refused to sell it although I am certain that, aside from us, there probably weren't 6 people in the room who would have known what was wrong with it.

[Shreckmeister]

Wow, what really jumps out at me from this discussion is the divergent
attitudes about what is and is not ethical in sales.    I've been burned
a couple times and although painful, I've taken a little something from
each experience.  Each one makes you a little wiser and more cautious.
Personally, I will never buy another longrifle without expert eval and a
face to face exchange.  I'm in the financial services industry and they require us to take ethics training.  I never found any of it to be more than
common sense courtesy.  If only some folks would work as hard at making
a living as they do at making a killing!