Author Topic: Percussion longrifle belonging to long established Kentucky family.  (Read 8623 times)

Offline Clark Badgett

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First off I hope this is in the correct sub-forum, if not I apologize and understand if it is moved.

This rifle belongs to a friend of mine, It has been in his family since he can remember, and he claims it as one of his family heirlooms, of which he has a few including 2 original log cabins (the first built in the 1790s, complete with firing ports, and the second built a few feet away in the 1810s) that have been joined together into an old farm house. He is not sure of the exact age or origins of this rifle, but his family hails originally from the Monticello, Ky area. The barrel is 46 3/4" long, approximately .40 cal and it seems to have been originally made as a percussion piece. The barrel is obviously hand forged and it's what can be considered parrallel sided, though there is a very slight flare of about 1/32" starting about 1" back from the muzzle. The wrist and the area around the lock have been repaired multiple times with nails, screws and an obvious brass sleeve.

















« Last Edit: July 03, 2011, 09:23:04 PM by Clark B »
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Offline Gary Tucker

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Re: Percussion longrifle belonging to long established Kentucky family.
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2011, 11:39:12 PM »
What a great rifle.  Thanks for showing it to us Clark.  I really like the poured nosecap and the dished out area above the cheekpiece.  I'm glad it's in the hands of someone who treasures it's past.
Gary Tucker

Offline jdm

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Re: Percussion longrifle belonging to long established Kentucky family.
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2011, 12:37:07 AM »
Nice East Tenn. rifle. Great look to it. Thanks,  JIM
JIM

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Percussion longrifle belonging to long established Kentucky family.
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2011, 02:08:12 AM »
I love the trigger guard the most.
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timM

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Re: Percussion longrifle belonging to long established Kentucky family.
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2011, 08:49:23 AM »
Clark B,

Thanks for putting these photos up! I love these guns and this one has some character......wished it lived at my house (smile).  tim

Offline Glenn

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Re: Percussion longrifle belonging to long established Kentucky family.
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2011, 05:02:23 PM »
Thanks for posting the photos.  The more original rifles the better !!!   ;D
Many of them cried; "Me no Alamo - Me no Goliad", and for most of them these were the last words they spoke.

Offline G-Man

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Re: Percussion longrifle belonging to long established Kentucky family.
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2011, 05:04:58 PM »
What a great original longrifle, from one of my favorite parts of the world....

If I had to guess, I don't think it to be an East Tennessee rifle - mostly based on the tang and hardware.   I would guess it to have been made a little farther west - closer to where your friend's family farms is.   Possibly either side of the Tennessee-Kentucky border in the Big South Fork region or nearby.  This area is basically on the eastern side of the Cumberland Plateau, west of where I-75 now runs, closer to old US 27 and 127 - Sergeant York country.   Settlers and gunsmiths in this region shared a lot of common heritage and influences as those in East Tennessee.  I suspect the rifle saw it's share of hog shoots and over the log matches in it's day - probably right up into the 20th century.  Well used but obviously well taken care of.

Guy

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Percussion longrifle belonging to long established Kentucky family.
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2011, 11:49:03 PM »
His family farm is located in Alpha, about 10 miles, give or take, north of Static, TN.

Speaking of SGT Alvin York, I was born in Burkesville, KY in Cumberland County, my father and mother both had their first teaching jobs there, and my father taught some of SGT York's grandchildren. My dad has always said they were the wildest, meanest kids he ever taught.
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JB2

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Re: Percussion longrifle belonging to long established Kentucky family.
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2011, 03:23:15 PM »
I like it a lot too!  Don't look in this section often, but glad I did.  I have a question- is it wrong that I want to re-create this rifle?  In left-hand, with a rock-lock, of course!  Would it be possible to get a couple of dimensions?  Just barrel length would probably get me close since you've posted so many good pics already.

Thanks again

Offline G-Man

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Re: Percussion longrifle belonging to long established Kentucky family.
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2011, 05:44:09 PM »
There would be absolutely nothing wrong with recreating this gun in flint.  The basic style of rifle would be appropriate from late flint through percussion era.  The style did not change much over the years and there were apparently many "mountain" rifles  built in flint up until at least the 1850s - which makes them very hard to date.

If you want to give your rifle an earlier look, say 1830s-40s you could consider adding the second (forward) lockbolt and washer, but even that is not a hard and fast rule.  I think Earl Lanning's Gillespie rifle, which is believed to be the earliest known one from that family, has a single lockbolt and is believed to be 1810 or thereabouts.

Guy

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Percussion longrifle belonging to long established Kentucky family.
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2011, 05:56:09 PM »
Quote
I think Earl Lanning's Gillespie rifle, which is believed to be the earliest known one from that family, has a single lock bolt and is believed to be 1810 or thereabouts.
Actually my Mathew Gillespie is the earliest Gillespie that I know of (circa 1810) and it has two lock bolts. Earl's rifle appears to have been made from the same stock template, probably same shop. To me Earl's rifle looks older than my Mathew but Earl thought mine a little older than his due to mine having two lock bolts. His has only 1.

Dennis
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Offline Robert Wolfe

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Re: Percussion longrifle belonging to long established Kentucky family.
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2011, 06:27:49 PM »
Question from someone simply trying to learn.....do you think that lock is an old reaplacment?  It seems too short for the inlet, particularly in the front. Could it have originally been flint? the wood behind the cock has been replaced so no cutout is evident.
Robert Wolfe
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Offline G-Man

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Re: Percussion longrifle belonging to long established Kentucky family.
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2011, 08:44:05 PM »
I can't see the lock panel well enough in the photos to see any evidence of replaced wood.  So hard to say - would really need to see a closeup photo with the lock off. 

Dennis - that is interesting to see that Earl now thinks his rifle is a bit later than your Matthew G.  In the Ivey book I believe he has his rifle attributed to John Sr., correct? 

In any event Earl's is still believed to be from around that 1810-1815 timeframe isn't it(?)

Thanks

Guy

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Percussion longrifle belonging to long established Kentucky family.
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2011, 10:48:40 PM »
Quote
Dennis - that is interesting to see that Earl now thinks his rifle is a bit later than your Matthew G.  In the Ivey book I believe he has his rifle attributed to John Sr., correct?

In any event Earl's is still believed to be from around that 1810-1815 timeframe isn't it(?)
Yes I think he did and he may be correct, or it may have been made by Mathew's older brother (my GG GF) William. Or it might have been by Mathew's youngest brother Robert Harvey. Circa 1810 all 4 of them would have been living in the East Fork area of Transylvania County.

Even though Earl's looks like a twin to mine when I put mine beside his you can see many differences. Earls has a vee shaped forearm mine rounded. Earl's has a similar shaped forged trigger guard than mine but when inspected it is completely different in the way its filed/forged. Earl's is unsigned and mine is signed (M * G). I have never seen a signed rifle that I thought Old John, William or Robert Harvey made, I have to assume they did not sign theirs. There are several obvious early Gillespie's around without signatures. Most of the Mills River Gillespie's have signatures and many with dates, most are fairly late rifles.

Dennis
« Last Edit: July 07, 2011, 10:51:16 PM by Dennis Glazener »
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JB2

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Re: Percussion longrifle belonging to long established Kentucky family.
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2011, 12:16:06 AM »
Question about Clarks original rifle, do you guys think that trigger guard is forged from 2, 3 or 4 pieces?  I believe I can see at least one joint, but cant tell if there's another one, and I definitely haven't seen enuff originals to speculate.

Oh, and I re-read the original post, yes-there is a barrel length!   Cool.

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Percussion longrifle belonging to long established Kentucky family.
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2011, 01:49:45 AM »
Ok to answer some of the questions. The lockplate appears to be original, but there is no way of really telling without a lot more detailed examination, and with the rifle in the fragile condition it's in I would not be willing to remove any part. I do see what you mean, at places the plate does appear to be smaller than the mortice in the pictures, this was not quite as appearant in person, the front end of the mortice appears like it was damaged. The only replaced wood anywhere that I could tell was the repair at the top front end of the lockplate, and it is a different shade of wood. The plate does have some faint "commercial" type of engraving, like the kind that is found on the "Warranted" type plates, that did not show up at all in the pictures. It may not be readily noticable in the pictures but the percussion drum is slanted forward a bit, and the nipple is completely worn away. A peculiarity of this rifle is that, with exception, of the brass sleeved repair, the left hand side of the rifle looks rather well preserved, while the right hand side is where most of the wear and damage is visable.

And on the question about the trigger guard. It is at least 3 seperate pieces joined together.

It would tickle Gary to no ends if this thing was originally made in flint, but I personally am not comfortable making that call. There is also a horn and possibly some other accoutrements that came with this rifle when it was passed down from his uncle, but he has those stored away at this time.
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Offline alyce-james

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Re: Percussion longrifle belonging to long established Kentucky family.
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2011, 11:52:53 PM »
Sir; Enjoyed the pictures you shared with us. I liked the featured pictures you sent. Turkeyfooter.
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Offline Don Steele

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Re: Percussion longrifle belonging to long established Kentucky family.
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2011, 08:58:23 PM »
Thank you for sharing.
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