US Riflemans pouch

[Longknife]

Has anyone made the US Riflemans pouch from the pattern supplied by The Rifle shop? Who is the best source for leather for this project?? The pattern says "light upper shoe leather and the strap and partition are buff leather. I have not seen them made thias way though....Ed

[Notchy Bob]

Wow, almost three years and no responses!

Longknife, I have not made this pouch, but I am contemplating this project, and I do intend to order the drawings and plans from The Rifle Shoppe. 

I had taken an interest in paper cartridges, and I recently bought an old copy of Lewis' Small Arms and Ammunition in the United States Service from Amazon Marketplace.  What a great book!  It is considered a definitive reference on paper cartridges, but it also has a good section on accoutrements, with drawings and photos of the U.S. Rifleman's Pouch.  This got me interested in building one.

In researching the project, I also found this image online:  1832 Riflemans Pouch.  This shows the buff leather straps.

By all means, let us know how yours turned out!

Best regards,
Notchy Bob

[Artificer]

I wasn't around here three years ago, but maybe I can help a little.

Back in the mid/late 70's, I made a lot of War of 1812 leather stuff, but never one of these pouches.  I used to buy my buff leather from Tandy in half hides.  They called it "White Latigo" in those days.  It was fairly heavy at around 6-7 ounce, but it worked well for Sword belt carriages, belts and other things.  Tandy sells this stuff in the link and it is heavy enough for pouch straps.  I would want to look at some of it though as you don't want a real "polished" looking leather.

http://www.tandyleatherfactory.com/en-usd/search/searchresults/9111-07.aspx

The most recommended current source I have for buff leather:

http://www.theleatherguy.org/

Gus

[Artificer]

Just had another thought.  Maybe you could get a smaller quantity of buff leather from either of these folks:

http://www.gggodwin.com/cartgenie/directory.asp

or

http://www.jarnaginco.com/1812catframe.html

Oh, and as to what weight leather for the pouch......  I would go with 4-5 oz leather.

Gus

[Frank Barker]

A friend of mine purchased one of these patterns and the flask and sent it to me to reproduce. He also sent me some buff leather which is as you say very heavy, 9-10 oz. The pouch is very small and I question it's authenticity in design, although the link that Longknife posted looks somewhat similar. If I do make this pouch, I will make my own buff leather out of oak tan and dye it white. I sold a pouch recently to a Rev. War reenactor and he said that in that time period, the straps were installed with the rough or flesh side out. This was for the comfort in carrying these pouches as the smooth strap against the body was much easier on the soldiers that carried them. I assume there are some reenacting groups who carry these things but if you want it as a hunting pouch, I would suggest a different pattern......Regards  Frank

[TPH]

The US Rifleman's pouch design by TRS is correct in size, shape and dimensions. The rifleman's pouch was not designed for use with paper cartridges but is meant to carry balls, patching material, tools and that is about it. As the original, it was not intended to carry the frew-frew that the modern BP shooter is so attached to. The rifleman did carry paper cartridges, but usually in a belly box with wooden block, for use when speed was and rapidity of fire needed, the cartridges did not contain patched round balls. The paper cartridge used by rifleman carried a naked, undersized ball (about .48 - .50 cal.) with powder in the same manner as that of the line infantry. It was intended for close in work when there was no time for precision loading or precision aimed fire.

Buff leather is oil tanned and does not have a hair side. That is, it does not have the standard smooth (hair) side we expect to see. It is highly flexible and is heavy in thickness, even when used as strapping and waist belts. When used for straps for carrying cartridge boxes and the rifleman's pouch it was 10 - 12 oz. in thickness. It is naturally a yellowish color but in military service it was usually whitened or blacked. Buff leather belting remained in use in the US services until 1865, maybe a little later, and in others (Great Britain for example) it is still used, whitened, for ceremonial purposes.  

White latigo is not a suitable replacement for buff leather. For real buff leather, Jarnigan is one good source. Duval Leather may still be another, he uses real buff for his reproduction US and English gear:

http://duvallleatherwork.com/StoreFront.bok

Better may be Booth and Co. Leather at:

http://www.boothandco.com/index.html

see particularly:

http://www.boothandco.com/reenactment.html

A last source will be Clayton Leather at:

http://www.claytonleather.com/

Do expect prices higher than you are used to paying for leather, there are few tanneries anywhere in the world that still make true buff leather.

[Artificer]

TPH,

Please understand I am not arguing with you, but wondered why you mentioned white latigo was not a suitable replacement for buff leather.  Is it because it is not oil tanned and has one smooth and one rough side? 

Gus

[TPH]

Gus, I understand that completely and didn't mean to sound like I was arguing, if we were face to face discussions like this would go better, my apologies.

That being said, yes, I guess I did mean that latigo is an inappropriate replacement for buff leather. Not that it won't work, it certainly does and it usually does pass the "10 foot rule" that many use. As a matter of fact, I have made similar substitutions when the person the item being made for was not concerned with exact duplication and wanted to hold price down, I have no problem with that, it is reasonable. I have even done it on items I have made for myself when time and/or cost was a problem.  When I can though, I like to do it right as I know you do as well.

As an aside, latigo is usually thinner than buff leather.

[Artificer]

TPH,

Absolutely no apologies necessary.  Rest assured I took no umbrage to your coments at all. 

I just happened to run across a bag of leather while I was looking for something else and it had some of the leather scraps and even a partially completed sword belt carriage from the white Latiigo leather I bought in the late 70's.  I was mistaken earlier and it actually is 8 - 10 oz in weight.  I had forgotten how thick it was.  Though back in the late 70's and very early 80's I thought it was too thick as I didn't know then it was supposed to be about that thick. 

Most of the items I made from it were for folks portraying U.S. soldiers at Historic Fort Wayne, IN where they reenacted the “Summer of 1816” back in the late 1970’s.  Even back then I knew White Latigo was not the same as Buff leather, but in the Pre Internet days, I could not locate a source for Buff leather.  Also, since soldiers were required to use pipe clay on their shoulder slings, it was considered “good enough” at the time. However, nowadays with the Internet, Buff leather can be rather easily found, though as you mentioned, it ain’t cheap.  Still, knowing it can be found makes it the only thing to use for a correct reproduction, as you mentioned.

I appreciate your input on how thick the leather is supposed to be for the shoulder straps as I did not know that.  Thank you.  If I may pick your brain further, was 8-10 oz thickness for Cartridge Box slings, Cross Belts, Sword carriages, Musket slings, etc. commonly that thick from the French and Indian War through the American Revolution as well for British and American accoutrements? 

Gus

[Notchy Bob]

I'm afraid my post above may have been misleading.  T.P. is exactly right...  The Rifleman's Pouch was not intended for paper cartridges.  However, it does look like an interesting project, and a nice accoutrement for a rifle of that era.  I like to shoot muskets and rifles, too!

Thanks, T.P., for those links to the leather companies.  I had never heard of any of them.

Notchy Bob

[R.W.D.]

Yes, thanks for the links.  I've been looking at getting a Mississippi rifle for some time and this pouch and a peace flask would complete the set.  Should have bought one a couple of years ago before the prices doubled.

[Artificer]

I have always thought the M1817 Rifle (made until 1842, at least by contractors I think?) was the neatest U.S. Flintlock Rifle ever made.  Back in the early 80's, I bought one in pieces/parts that had been converted to percussion.  On a trip to Harpers Ferry, they had a very nice reproduction on display.  However, in 1984 when I visited Springfield Arsenal for the first time,  the Curator brought an excellent condition original out for me to handle and admire and take measurements from.  Unfortunately just before I could begin the restoration, I had to sell it for financial reasons.

This pouch and horn or even the flask for later periods would have gone very nicely with it. 
Gus

[Luke MacGillie]

http://mnhs.mnpals.net/F/M1Y9CJBF3AX8AKPDJMH6R457QIAK8NL4KVN6M9F794HGMNEBGY-60358?func=full-set-set&set_number=162049&set_entry=000020&format=999

A version of the pouch without a buff leather strap.......

[Luke MacGillie]

javascript:open_window("http://mnhs.mnpals.net/F/UYB675VD8QJJ5AS52KI53L879CBBK115N4JN58JUDMFHEX69NH-29261?func=service&doc_library=SYS01&doc_number=001720916&line_number=0001&func_code=WEB-FULL&service_type=MEDIA");

I noticed my original link did not work, try the one just above, hopefully it will work.