Author Topic: Proof Testing  (Read 19902 times)

camerl2009

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Re: Proof Testing
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2011, 04:21:32 AM »
i will add most modern gun barrels are made from 4140 cromolly witch is a good steel for things like this

but barrels have been made from low carbon steel like 1020c

most steel will work for a bp barrel but you need to know what your doing my choice would be 4130 or 4140

ive been reading like crazy its making my head hurt too much books i like at library i go for gun making books and i find my self in the history section  :P

keweenaw

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Re: Proof Testing
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2011, 06:35:55 PM »
A barrel made from any type of steel can fail.  We've all seen photos of modern centerfire barrels split like bananas from the muzzle to half way down the barrel and there is no gunsmith of any length of practice who has not had shotgun barrels come in that were split or blown out at the muzzle.  All of these are on proof tested barrels of supposedly good barrel steels.  And all of these failures are due to operator error with bad handloads, or obstructed barrels.  Most of the reported cases of failure on muzzleloader barrels are due to leaving short starters in barrels or failure to seat the ball on the powder.  It doesn't matter what steel the barrel is made of, operator error of this sort will result in a damaged barrel. And modern rimfire barrels are made from "mild" steels, not 4140 or 4340.

On 4140 barrels, the larger manufactures who use chrome moly steels are also set up to do proper heat treating and stress relieving of these barrels and can buy stock in large lots that has been appropriate treated to make barrels.  Guys making a few barrels from 4140, i.e. most guys who make muzzleloader barrels, not only don't have the where with all to purchase large enough lots, they don't have the facilities to do the heat treating or even to do the requisite hardness testing on their stock or finished barrels. 

One of Joe Manton's claims in promoting his guns was that his barrels were hydroproofed in addition to the guild required proof.  This was because there could be flaws in the welds that would not cause barrel failure in the standard proof but would squirt water if you filled the barrel with water under pressure.  It's not at all uncommon to see 18th century fowler barrels with patches brazed or riveted into them to fill flaws.  In some cases it's obvious that the guns were used heavily after such repairs.  We would never tolerate such repair but then we don't always think rationally.

Tom




camerl2009

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Re: Proof Testing
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2011, 11:08:37 PM »
A barrel made from any type of steel can fail.  We've all seen photos of modern centerfire barrels split like bananas from the muzzle to half way down the barrel and there is no gunsmith of any length of practice who has not had shotgun barrels come in that were split or blown out at the muzzle.  All of these are on proof tested barrels of supposedly good barrel steels.  And all of these failures are due to operator error with bad handloads, or obstructed barrels.  Most of the reported cases of failure on muzzleloader barrels are due to leaving short starters in barrels or failure to seat the ball on the powder.  It doesn't matter what steel the barrel is made of, operator error of this sort will result in a damaged barrel. And modern rimfire barrels are made from "mild" steels, not 4140 or 4340.

On 4140 barrels, the larger manufactures who use chrome moly steels are also set up to do proper heat treating and stress relieving of these barrels and can buy stock in large lots that has been appropriate treated to make barrels.  Guys making a few barrels from 4140, i.e. most guys who make muzzleloader barrels, not only don't have the where with all to purchase large enough lots, they don't have the facilities to do the heat treating or even to do the requisite hardness testing on their stock or finished barrels. 

One of Joe Manton's claims in promoting his guns was that his barrels were hydroproofed in addition to the guild required proof.  This was because there could be flaws in the welds that would not cause barrel failure in the standard proof but would squirt water if you filled the barrel with water under pressure.  It's not at all uncommon to see 18th century fowler barrels with patches brazed or riveted into them to fill flaws.  In some cases it's obvious that the guns were used heavily after such repairs.  We would never tolerate such repair but then we don't always think rationally.

Tom





stress relieving 4140 or 4130 is not big deal its vary easy in fact all you need for doing barrels is a trough forge the type you use for sword making it will heat it evenly

Daryl

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Re: Proof Testing
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2011, 11:37:02 PM »
Cam - do you personally use the trough or large oven method for annealing gun barrels?

Offline Ken G

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Re: Proof Testing
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2011, 11:43:22 PM »
I'd like to see your trough forge set up.  Please post a pic.  Sounds neat.
Thanks,
Ken
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camerl2009

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Re: Proof Testing
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2011, 12:19:58 AM »
i had one but it got stolen out of my back yard 2 years ago dam scrapers.

all it is is a big piece of angle iron (something like 4" wide on each side or bigger) and as long as you need it then you take a think walled piece of round tube and drill holes down one side the you set it in holes up of corse and weld it in place.

 now i did not get to this part before the scrapers got to it  you take it and set it in concrete or make a stand for it out of steel something to hold it. if you used thin walled angle iron you want to set it in concrete thick stiff like 1/4" or thicker you can just weld some legs made of thin steel tubing 

i'll build a new one down the road i got to go get some angle iron to use

camerl2009

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Re: Proof Testing
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2011, 04:15:41 AM »
i had one but it got stolen out of my back yard 2 years ago dam scrapers.

all it is is a big piece of angle iron (something like 4" wide on each side or bigger) and as long as you need it then you take a think walled piece of round tube and drill holes down one side the you set it in holes up of corse and weld it in place.

 now i did not get to this part before the scrapers got to it  you take it and set it in concrete or make a stand for it out of steel something to hold it. if you used thin walled angle iron you want to set it in concrete thick stiff like 1/4" or thicker you can just weld some legs made of thin steel tubing 

i'll build a new one down the road i got to go get some angle iron to use

Interesting - that would be while you were only 15 years of age. Way to go. At age 15, I was more into girls - however I did hunt whenever I could, with rifles and shotguns as well.
ive always been a bit differnt  :P

Offline Ken G

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Re: Proof Testing
« Reply #32 on: September 23, 2011, 06:16:26 PM »
Guys,
I split this thread because the discussion had drifted way off from runastav's original post of his proof testing mechanism.  Nothing wrong with the discussion but I don't want to take away from runastav's work.  My appoligys to runastav for the drifting.
Thanks,
Ken

The new thread is "Now Barrel steel - split from Proof Testing"
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=18375.msg172358#msg172358
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 06:18:04 PM by Ken G »
Failure only comes when you stop trying.

AmBraCol

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Re: Proof Testing
« Reply #33 on: September 23, 2011, 06:18:58 PM »
Thanks, Ken.  You're right.  I wish we had pics of our proof testing setup from back then.  It was not nearly as elaborate as the one shown at the top of this discussion.  He has a very ingenious setup.

Offline LynnC

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Re: Proof Testing
« Reply #34 on: September 23, 2011, 07:37:25 PM »
Hey Ken - Read that title again " Barrel Steel split from proof testing" - Sounds pretty catastrophic  :o
The price of eggs got so darn high, I bought chickens......

Offline Ken G

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Re: Proof Testing
« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2011, 07:51:40 PM »
 :o  Yes, I think I will change it.  Thanks,
Ken
Failure only comes when you stop trying.

AmBraCol

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Re: Proof Testing
« Reply #36 on: September 23, 2011, 11:27:01 PM »
Hey Ken - Read that title again " Barrel Steel split from proof testing" - Sounds pretty catastrophic  :o

Shucks, I kind of liked it... :) ;D

Offline Ken G

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Re: Proof Testing
« Reply #37 on: September 24, 2011, 05:14:29 PM »
Runastav,
Will you post a picture of your barrel testing mechanism in the "shop made tools" forum?
Thanks,
Ken
Failure only comes when you stop trying.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Proof Testing
« Reply #38 on: September 24, 2011, 05:43:39 PM »
Guys,
I split this thread because the discussion had drifted way off from runastav's original post of his proof testing mechanism.  Nothing wrong with the discussion but I don't want to take away from runastav's work.  My appoligys to runastav for the drifting.
Thanks,
Ken

The new thread is "Now Barrel steel - split from Proof Testing"
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=18375.msg172358#msg172358

Good move.
I keep thinking of making a similar device to prove percussion guns, some simple mechanism to strike the cap.
This because proving a percussion via a fuse and pile of powder is frustrating.
Also the percussion ignition system seems to make a steeper pressure spike (?) than the flint ignition. I base this on reports of flint shotguns converted to percussion back in the day then failing in service.
But the real reason I suspect for W. Greener complaining of guns failing after proof goes back to material but this is being discussed in the moved portion of the thread.
Tom Curran mentions a water pressure test. This will find leaks but it will not proof a barrel for service since there is no shock loading. Shock loading is an effect that gets lost in the pressure discussion in many cases. Shock loading can seriously weaken steel that is supposedly plenty strong enough.
But I am drifting again ;D

Dan

Dan
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AmBraCol

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Re: Proof Testing
« Reply #39 on: September 24, 2011, 07:36:17 PM »
runastav, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this setup for proof testing a flintlock barrel using a percussion ignition system?  At least, that's what it looks like to me, with the nipple that far above the barrel and all.  It's a very ingenious contraption.

Offline runastav

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Re: Proof Testing
« Reply #40 on: September 24, 2011, 08:36:39 PM »
thank you all!
Ken G, it is done ;) Paul-in Pereira, the JET from the perk cap will fire the load just try it!

Runar

AmBraCol

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Re: Proof Testing
« Reply #41 on: September 24, 2011, 10:46:02 PM »
thank you all!
Ken G, it is done ;) Paul-in Pereira, the JET from the perk cap will fire the load just try it!

Runar

I figured that was what was going on.  "Holy black" is touchy stuff, just about any spark will do it.  Wish we lived closer, I'd love to give you a hand playing with proof testing your barrels.  I just thank the Good Lord for helping me grow up with all my appendages intact.  Hearing, now, that's another matter.  Eh?  What'd you say?  Back then no one knew about hearing protection.

Offline tim crowe

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Re: Proof Testing
« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2011, 03:28:49 AM »
Pablo,

General escopita barrels in Colombia were drilled from truck axles told to me by a NTM worker.

Timoteo en Villavicencio


AmBraCol

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Re: Proof Testing
« Reply #43 on: September 25, 2011, 08:15:04 AM »
Pablo,

General escopita barrels in Colombia were drilled from truck axles told to me by a NTM worker.

Timoteo en Villavicencio



Willys Jeep steering columns also have been used to build "escopeta de fisto" muzzle loaders down here.  In fact, I've got a pistol up in the US that was built for me by a backwoods gun smith yea these many years ago.  The nipple is in the back like an inline, the action is a one off he built based kind of around the CVA Blazer type of idea.  It's smooth bore and I've taken a parrot with it at 70 paces using roughly #6 size shot. (yes it was a one in a million lucky shot - but it happened).

Offline tim crowe

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Re: Proof Testing
« Reply #44 on: September 25, 2011, 05:24:59 PM »
Pablo
We can continue this topic on escopetas in "Over the Back Fence"  since it does not pertain to American Long rifles? Sorry to get it off track. You dont run into a LLanero very often that uses a escopeta.

Timoteo

Leatherbelly

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Re: Proof Testing
« Reply #45 on: September 25, 2011, 08:08:38 PM »
Welcome back,Tim!

Offline tim crowe

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Re: Proof Testing
« Reply #46 on: September 25, 2011, 10:09:22 PM »
thanks Roy, good to see you alive and kicking.