Gravers made from a file

[Kevin Houlihan]

Ok...I got the Jack Brooks and Keith Casteel videos on engraving.  Both show heat treating and tempering a file.  I took an old 3 cornered file, ground it, stoned it, heat treated and tempered it, polished it - it looked beautiful   Shortly (like 10 seconds) after I started to engrave a piece of mild steel, the tip broke    When I did the heat treat, I heated the tip past red to orange and quenched it in water.  After I polished it I tempered the end - bringing the tip slowly to a straw color - sort of and then quenched it in water.  I may have gone a little to far on the tempering.  Should the  face angle be more square when engraving steel?  How critical are the colors when hardening and tempering?  I would appreciate any ideas or suggestions.
Thanks,
Kevin     

[Acer Saccharum]

You may have better results grinding a graver an old High Speed Steel (HSS) tap, endmill or lathe bit. The triangular file is High Carbon and quite brittle, tending to chip easily.

High Speed Steel (HSS) is very forgiving. It can be ground without too much concern about losing the temper.


When engraving, be careful not to pry the chip out of the cut, or to cut too deep in one pass. That will surely chip your point.
Let the hammer do all the work of moving the graver thru the metal. Don't be pushing the graver, nor holding it with a death grip. Relax, and tap it along.

Tom

[kutter]

There's enough things to drive you crazy trying to learn engraving w/o trying to make gravers. Though I applaud those that do so,,I feel the frustration of going through the heat treating of various steel implements after hours of shaping, grinding and polishing only to have them break on you just sets you back.

Learn to shape your tools from common 3/32" or 1/8" square tool bits. They're available in HHS, Cobalt, Carbalt, Carbide and undoubtedly more special alloys than I could ever imagine.
I started with 1/8" rd Stellite rod. Still works well.

The packets of bits are inexpensive and available from either tool supply outlets or engravers supply.
Buying ready made gravers isn't a bad idea either. Though generally only available to HSS, they will be usable for most any job on a M/Ldr.

Later on when you have lots of time, you can sit around and fiddle with heat treating old wagon spokes to make gravers.

Metal engraving is not an easily learned trade,, especially in the traditional hammer/chisel and graver methods.
Take all the drudgery out of it you can.
You can learn to be a graver tool maker later.
It's bad enough that sometimes you'll feel like a professional tool sharpener when things don't go right.

Just my .02

[Jim Kibler]

Simple carbon steel gravers can work ok, but I must plug the glensteel HSS steel gravers sold by GRS.  These are very tough.  Since switching to these, tip chipping has been virtually eliminated for me.

[T*O*F]

Should the  face angle be more square when engraving steel?

Face angles vary with the hardness of the metal and can vary from 30 to 60+ degrees.  45 degree tips are a generic setting for most materials.  What works best depends on the material being engraved and YOUR engraving style.  What works for one person may not work for another.

Next, steel is a generic term because there are an infinite variety of steels, each with its own unique properties.  There's a lot of difference between a mild steel practice plate, a piece of stainless, or an investment cast buttplate.  Even within a particular metal you can have soft and hard spots.  Each requires its own tip grind and graver material.

Likewise, your heel angle is of great importance.  It is also known as "lift."  It must be set for your engraving style, dependent on the way you hold your graver.  "Lift" controls the clearance between your hand and the work.  If you have large, fat hands and try to use a grind with low lift, you will keep trying to raise your graver to provide clearance for your hand, but in doing so will cause the tip to dig into the metal.  Conversely, if you have small, skinny hands and use a high lift, you will keep lowering your graver and it will climb out of your cut and go skidding across your work.  Thus the best heel angle for you is obtained thru experimentation.  The length of the heel is also important.  If it's long, you will be able to cut straight lines with impunity, but will have trouble cutting curves and will break tips on tight curves, as well as other problems.

Once you have found a configuration that works for you, you must be able to repeat it.  You cannot get this repeatability when grinding by hand.  That skill takes many years to acquire.  This is why templates and sharpening fixtures are recommended.  Engravers don't like to waste time regrinding broken tips and then spend time fiddling with the angles to get them to cut.  Get a template that works for you, buy a number of the 3/32 or 1/8 inserts and a handle that allows them to be replaced easily.  Then when you start a project, you can sharpen several at the beginning and just replace them if they break.  Continuously stopping in the middle of a job is a PITA.

[mjm46@bellsouth.net]

I use a 45 degree face angle and for the lift I use a short piece of 3/16 steel rod as a guide on the bottom side flats. A few strokes across the stone while bearing on the rod to maintain the angle on the two bottom faces and I'm good to go.

[Kevin Houlihan]

Thanks for all of the comments and tips.  I'm probably going to buy some gravers and practice engraving and not graver making.  Is there a good place to look for gravers for a beginner?  If I use tool bits, what should I use for a handle?
Thanks,
Kevin

[kutter]

NgraveR in Ct is where I'v bought alot of blank bits & handles from in the past.
http://www.ngraver.com/index.htm

One of the links on the bottom of the home page is the price list

I used their 'Belgian style' steel handles for about 30yrs. They take a 3/32" sq tool bit or an 1/8" rd.
It'll take an 1/8" square too if you just grind a touch off of the edges of the bit that slips up into the handle.

Simple set screw to hold them in place. Handles are square in profile. Nice having the dead weight of the steel when hammering. I used wooden handles before that and though they worked well, the steel handles improved my work greatly. The weight of the (steel) handle is actually an advantage.

When I used pre-shaped gravers early on, I used wooden handles. I tried all sorts of different shapes of handles both for chasing and graver work.  Some bought, some home made.
You have to experiment for yourself to find what works best. Everyone will have a 'best one',,but it will probably not/may not be right for you.
I ended up putting some of the pre-shaped gravers (liners especially, some specialty bent shank cutters,ect) into the Belgian style handles. They worked the best for me.

No need to get in to Carbide gravers. Unless you are going to cut Ruger #1's and Winchester 21's and want to spend $$ on diamond sharpening hones to point them up.

HHS or  Cobalt will do fine.
**I did not have good luck with the NgraveR brand preshaped gravers. I can't recommend those.

Some searching to find a supplier for pre-shaped gravers will need to be done. They used to be very common,,not so much anymore.

Steve Lindsay sells his air assist machine but also some tools. His CarBalt tool bits are very good. Nice website to look about. Lots of ideas and tips.
http://www.lindsayengraving.com/

GRS has GlenSteel graver blanks and roughed out points. I've never used them but alot of engravers really like them. Lots of other stuff on their site.
They have some HSS traditional shaped gravers. The shanks are shaped for their air assist handles,,but they'd probably fit nicely into a wooden or the Belgian handle too.
http://www.grstools.com/gravers-burs-and-more/glensteel/glensteel-gravers.html

Learn to sharpen the tool correctly or wander aimlessly wondering why it cut so nicely before and so terribly now.
 At least there are books, videos, DVD's, internet and seminars now to show you how it's done.
When I started, most still put their apron over their work and tools so no 'secrets' got out when they walked away from the bench. There wasn't a free flow of information that's for sure!

[Dphariss]

With 1/8" lathe tools, HSS no less, so cheap making a graver from a file is a waste of time.
http://www1.mscdirect.com/cgi/NNSRIT2?PMAKA=02603082&PMPXNO=1705176&cm_re=ItemDetail-_-ResultListing-_-SearchResults
Dan

[cmac]

I tried making them from files with about the same results. Then tried 1/8" square tool steel and old cold chisels. These both worked well

[JTR]

I don't know Keith Casteel, but know Jack Brooks a bit, and suspect that he could do a passable good job of engraving with a rusty nail!

But as a beginner you're going to need all the help you can get and I doubt you'll find it in an old file. Spending a couple bucks on a proper graver and sharpening guide will save you a lot of time and frustration.

John

[Captchee]

Snap . I can tell you that at one time I did a lot of chase engraving with a simple triangle file . Not once did I heat treat , temper  or fiddle with the  hardness of the file .
 Myself I liked  a ¼ inch  tapered triangle file
    What I did was cut the Tang end of the file off so that I would have a blank  approximately 8 inches long
Don’t throw the tang end away , it makes great little wigglers .

Anyway . Taking the file to my bench grinder I then would make a couple passes just to knock of the  teat of the file on 2 sides .
 Then  I would grind an approximate 45 degree face , using the same bench grinder .
 Be careful, you don’t want to get  things to hot , quench it often .
 Once you have the face , then go to your diamond files   and clean it up .
 Then come back and make a couple  passes on  the bottom for the heal . You don’t  need a lot .  But both sides must be the same  or your graver is going to drift ..
 Then go at your practice plate .
 When you set your self up , make sure you yourself are little forward . You want to be able to see the face of the  graver .
 Start with light ,slow taps  with your hammer .  don’t try to go to deep . Most engraving  that is not relief , isn’t as deeply cut as you would think .
don’t rush your cuts .  Just make nice little taps  that are just hard enough to  push the engrave along . If you find you have to hit the graver harder , your  graver is either dull or your going deeper into the material .
 
 Once you have cut a few lines  you then can see what adjustments you need to make  either in your hold or in the heal.
 Just keep in mind that your graver has to be sharp enough to cut NOT plow through the  metal your working on .
 
Also as was mentioned ,  different metals  cut  differently . Bass does not cut the same way as steel even though it softer . Myself I think steel cuts a whole lot nicer and easier then brass .

 Inevitably someone is going to say ; ya but you need this  degree of angle  or that degree for the heal and you need to polish and temper to X

 We seem to get hung up on all those degrees and such  anymore . But in reading up on the forums that Kutter listed ,  pay attention to those folks who have  or talk about  their experiences with  many of the older European master engravers . What you find is  many of these  folks don’t  appear to worry all that much about   specific , exact  angles .
Some years back there was a  post about this over on the Lindsey forum . One of the members had taken a trip to  spend some time with one of the master Benelli engravers .
 He commented on that when he ask about angles , he received an odd look and a shrug .

 But anyways  right now your just starting out . Your making basic tools .
 Once you move on to  more quality work and tools , then you can start  thinking about  jigs ,  different  graver steels , angle jigs , stone grades ………… the list goes on and on

[docone]

One thing that helps on sharpening file gravers,
While you are grinding the tip, use an old Windex, or other spray bottle handy to spray the tip while grinding it.
If you keep the tip cool, you will not need to retemper or harden it.
Go real slowly, set the table for about 46*. Go real slow.  You do not want the tip or file blank to get hot.
You also make the reliefe facets this way.
Now, take a piece of wet or dry sandpaper, 400 grit, or a stone. Contact cement the paper to a sheet of glass.
Use oil while polishing the tip.
What ever is on the tip will  print into the work.
I am lucky as I also facet gemstones. I have access to diamond laps.
Now, here is the thing.
You can get the lap faces for significantly less than diamond laps. E-bay has them, and Lopaki also sells them.
These laps can be put on grinders by themselves and used that way. Obviously, if you shove on them, they will flex and start vibrating. If you go lightly, they are great. Again, keep that spray bottle handy.
Making an heel will keep the tip stronger. Keep the heel facets close to the tip.
Good on your for trying! I wish I had remotely known about how this was done when I was younger! I am a diamond setter in my shop, and I am practicing on riflles now. So far, only the brass plates.
Once you do the first one, make the first graver, you will definately have lattitude. I do reccomend making Gravers. I feel it helps to know the tool.
I can purchase them, but I feel real good about making them. I also have a MagnaGraver, but I like chasing.
It is worth knowing this stuff.