Ball, Patch & Load vs. Barrel

[Bill-52]

Being new to black powder shooting and muzzleloaders, I've always read the threads on the best ball, patch, load, lube, etc. combination with great interest.  For example, Gene Carrell's recent thread on the best load for a .45 caliber flint caught my attention as I'm also working on the best load for my .45 caliber flint.

My question is does the barrel manufacturer make a difference as well?  Ignoring flat bottom versus round bottom grooves, wouldn't different manufacturers' .45 caliber barrels tend towards different ideal ball/patch/load combinations?  Or, is it an individual barrel type of variable?

Thanks, Bill

[northmn]

When one talks about patch/ball combinations you get into a variety of different issues:
1. Precision desired vs loading ease.  Some can with the correct setup load a ball slightly larger than the bore.  Often these are target shooters using rests such as bench or X sticks or chunk shooters.  Some field shooters desire a load than can be thumb started and there are those anywhere in between. 
2. Barrel brand can make a difference as the older Douglas barrels seemed to like a slightly larger ball tahn some of the others.  Also rifling depth may be a factor.  Some brands have a rifling depth of 016 as compared to others closer to 010.  Thciker patches would seem to be in order for the deeper rifling.  Even among the same barrel manufacturers there seems to be some difference in finding a sweet spot.
3.  when someone talks about an "ideal" load they are talking about a load for a specific barrel, however, I have seen loads that seem to be very versatile.  For instance for a deer hunting load in a typical 45 I would look at a 445 ball and a 015 or 020 patch using a good grease lube using about 70 grains of 3f.  Generally a 45 will shoot about 40-50 grains of 3f very well for closer range target shooting and Rondy stuff using a liquid lube that cleans as well as lubes.  I knew a few folks taht would shoot about 60 grains at everything.  A lot of combinations will shoot better tahn you can offhand but there is no "ideal" load as uses and barrel differ slightly.  I also think that regions where humidity is different also effect things.

DP

[Collector]

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You're right - the testing isn't over.  Sometimes seems it's never over.

THAT's the answer... 

Gives you an excuse to do more shooting anyway!

Good luck!!

[Kermit]

Back when I started with my Renegade, I went to the sporting goods store and bought what they had. Then I joined a club and started asking questions, and then started doing more for myself--cutting patches, molding balls. And so it goes. On and on. Enjoyably so.

There are pellet and sabot and stainless in-line folks, who are a lot like the hunters who have a plastic-stocked 30-06. They buy manufactured rounds off the shelf.

You can get into it more like the cartridge handloaders, trying to find that elusive best load for each gun.

You set your own goals for that "best." You can go where the benchrest guys go. The muzzleloading equivalent is the roundball and slug gun bench shooters.

Just dive in and do what feels right. Go where your interest takes you. It's all good. Shooting sports are shooting sports. Olympic biathalon interests me, but I'm not going there. I have less than zero interest in autoloading paramilitary zip guns and handguns bore me, but that's just me. I just started on the journey, and now I am where I am. Take the next step.

[Dphariss]

Being new to black powder shooting and muzzleloaders, I've always read the threads on the best ball, patch, load, lube, etc. combination with great interest.  For example, Gene Carrell's recent thread on the best load for a .45 caliber flint caught my attention as I'm also working on the best load for my .45 caliber flint.

My question is does the barrel manufacturer make a difference as well?  Ignoring flat bottom versus round bottom grooves, wouldn't different manufacturers' .45 caliber barrels tend towards different ideal ball/patch/load combinations?  Or, is it an individual barrel type of variable?

Thanks, Bill

The land groove ratio makes a difference in how easy the ball moves.
Grooves over .010-.012 are a waste of time.  .008 will work fine. "Round" grooves are also a waste IMO they are cosmetic only and are harder to seal since they are always deeper than they need to be.
Wide lands increase friction in the bore both when loading and as the powder pushes the ball out.
So narrow lands may need more powder. But narrow lands will work as well with harder lead as they do with pure lead
Since I like heavy charges, especially for hunting, this in not a problem.
The next question is what is the barrel steel.
This last is always good for a "discussion".

Dan

[Bill-52]

Thanks for the responses; much appreciated.  I'm focused on on offhand shooting out to about 100+ yards, just for enjoyment of it.  Thus far in the few times I've been out, I've only shot at 25 and 50 yards.  Probably not even enough to get the barrel "broken in".  The good news is that it appears I'll have to embark on prolonged testing of all the variables, i.e., much more shooting!

Dan, regarding barrel steel, do you really want to go there?  Wouldn't you much rather discuss how the Golden Mean applies to gun building? 

Bill

[roundball]

And when its time to get around to discussing various type grooves, round bottom groove barrels are simply outstanding and worth considering for the day you might be ordering a barrel.
Minimal fouling, simple to clean with a single patch, easier to load, extremely accurate, etc...once I tried the first one, every build since then has been with round bottom groove barrels.
Enjoy your journey...this is a great past time

[Gene Carrell]

As  for me, much of the fun  in the shooting game  is  to try and compare all the possible combinations of  ball/patch/lube/powder. One thing I have discovered is  that  frequently some  combinations will transfer from one firearm to another, but not a complete loading recipe.  This is especially true if barrels are of different manufacture or rifling. For instance, I've a TC Cherokee 32cal that shoots well using 0.315 dia rb. using the same ball/patch/lube/powder in  my  Cecil Martin barrelled  squirrel rifle will result in  a "pattern". Using a  0.320 dia rb  will allow it to perform as it  should. This from a difference in bore and rifling.  Every barrel is unto itself.

[Vomitus]

 Every barrel is unto itself.

Amen!

[Daryl]

The crown! the crown! ------- Loading tight combinations is all about the condition of the crown. Without a smoothly crowned muzzle, loading accurate tight loads is next to impossible without damaging the patch. The patch must not be damaged as it is being loaded or when guiding the ball out the muzzle.

Turn the gun periodically, to assure an even crown. I run a clean patch or swatch of cloth down a couple inches to catch the 'dust' of the emery or wet/dry paper, then after crowning, pull that out with needlenosed plyers, carefully.

To re-crown your muzzle, stick the end of your thumb into the muzzle hard with the emery or paper under it and rotate your hand, bakc and forth, back and forth, rotating your rifle or smoothbore as noted. In 15 minutes, you can have a perfectly smooth, polished crown. Use 320grit for 'roughing' and up to 600 for finishing, although the finer grits arent necessary.

A lathe makes this a 20 second job after running the barrel through the headstock and tightening the chuck.

I've NEVER achieved anything remotely connected with good accuracy using a patch of less than .015" & with that patch, a ball that was .0025" LARGER than the bore was necessary.

[Candle Snuffer]

And when its time to get around to discussing various type grooves, round bottom groove barrels are simply outstanding and worth considering for the day you might be ordering a barrel.
Minimal fouling, simple to clean with a single patch, easier to load, extremely accurate, etc...once I tried the first one, every build since then has been with round bottom groove barrels.
Enjoy your journey...this is a great past time

Owning both, .40 and .45 Ed Rayl "round bottom grooved" barrels, I agree 100%.  Round bottom IMHO is far surperior to any other method.

[Daryl]

Onions differ on the 'best' rifling shape and depth from shooter to shooter and maker to maker.  One barrel maker says the deeper the rifling, the more accurate they are and that .016" is too shallow - yet I've observed that those who are interested is match winning accuracy all shoot rifling of .008" to .012" depth with square cornered grooves.  If rounded rifling was better, wouldn't they be using it?  You dang well bet they would.

As to one form cleaning easier than the other, perhaps the rounded ones do in instances where fouling is allowed to build in the grooves. Rounded grooves would clean easier, but cleaning a properly loaded (my 'loaded' opinion) square rifled barrel is a 5 minute job - at most, same as a rounded barrel, so I don't see any tangible difference there.

Dan is correct in stating the sealing problem - the deeper the grooves, the harder it is to seal & the tighter the combination has to be. Without a seal, blowby happens, fouling builds up and wiping becomes necessary as the bore's condition is constantly changing.