Parker Hale Volunteer first shot accuracy of clean bore v. fouled bore

[Murdock]

I have been lurking for a year or so, and this is my first post.

I have been reluctant to use my .451 PH Volunteer for hunting, since I have not found the first shot from a cold, clean bore to hit within 5-6 inches of the group obtainable with a fouled bore.  The first shot does not hit the same place consistently.  This at 70 yards from a rest in my backyard range.   I would prefer not to foul the bore before I hunt.

My load has been a Lyman Volunteer bullet cast from dross-skimmed WW and dropped from their #2641114 mold.  They are sized to .450 IIRC and can be thumb started.  Usually I shoot it with 90 grains of FFg with a thin cardboard wad (punched from the backing from a pad of yellow paper).  Dry felt wads, dry cardboard wads, felt wads soaked in SPG, and a combination of felt and cardboard wads have been tried.  I lube the bullet with SPG.  I have gone up to 120 grains with no detectible change in accuracy compared to 90 grains.  Thumps harder, though.  My supposition has been that a relatively heavy charge needs to be employed in order to upset the bullet enough to take the rifling.

Could an eroded nipple (due to heavy charges) be an issue here?  Would a platinum nipple be worth the expense?

Any suggestions to help bring the cold, clean bore first shot closer to the fouled bore group would be welcome.  Thanks for any help.

[Dan'l 1946]

Try using pure lead instead of wheel weights. It will obturate easier. I've always found wheel weight alloy to be too hard for muzzleloaders.
                      Dan

[bob in the woods]

We have some here using that rifle at long range matches. 20-1 lead /tin is what they use. I don't know of any who size their bullets. per se, but SPG is used  a lot. One has a PP bullet he uses. These guns are very accurate, and I think you will have better luck with the softer alloy.
As for hunting, I prefer a round ball of decent size. I know that bullet shape you have, and am not crazy about it for hunting. If you are going to hunt with it, I'd file a nice .30 meplat on the nose.
In the woods here, I lost 2 deer in the swamps after shooting them with my 40-70 Sharps. The 45 cal wasn't much better with my long range bullets. [ unless I hit bone ! ]    My 50-70 Sharps carbine was my best game gun , until I went to a .54 round ball flintlock. Since shooting/hunting with round balls, .50 to .75 , I have not lost an animal. That speaks volumes.  My moose gun is now a .62 cal Edward Marshal flintlock.  
Anyway, good luck with your shooting. First shot accuracy should pick up with the softer bullet .

[Stormrider51]

Roundball hit the nail on the head.  The first shot is the one that counts in hunting.  Sight your rifle for that clean cold barrel shot.

I've never found WW metal to work well in a muzzleloader.  Pressures just aren't high enough.  Try pure lead.  You might also try paper patching for a slightly tighter fit and better grip on the rifling.  Use 20# high rag content bond paper.  Regular paper will tear too easily.  High rag is more expensive but a single ream of 500 sheets will last a long time.

How many shots have been fired from the gun to date?  Peak accuracy with a new bore is seldom reached until a couple hundred rounds have been fired through it.  It takes an average of that many shots to remove microburrs left from the rifling process.  I doubt this has anything to do with the first shot being "out of group" but thought I'd mention it.
Storm

[T*O*F]

I shot a PH Volunteer in the 500 yard Creedmore match at Friendship one year.
90 grs of Swiss 1.5fg by weight (weighed and kept in small vials)
Pure lead bullets, also weighed within 2 grains.  SPG lube OK
A single over-powder wad cut from a cereal box.
Velocity spread between shots was 7fps and the first shot was as good as the last.

These loads will burn out a standard nipple in as little as 10 shots.  The platinum nipple is a must.

[Bob Roller]

There is a man in Northern Kentucky that uses an English .451 loaded with a 330 grain hollow point over 75 grains of 3fg and says it works fine. All one shot kills,all walk overs and no blood trails.
The 40-70 or the 45 whatever with a solid bullet is as you said,no good unless it hits bone.
A big round ball or the above mentioned hollow point is best for a flimsy critter like a deer,

Bob Roller

[Murdock]

Thanks for replies thus far.

I know the .451 Volunteer has an outstanding reputation for accuracy, and in fact won my state BP gong shoot championship two years running with this rifle.  (Sounds much more glorious that it was, as the targets were big and easy and there were very few shooters in the ML category/class).

While I have not tested my bullets for hardness, I had presumed that by skimming the dross off my WW lead that the remaining lead in the pot would be softer than normal WW lead, providing better/easier obturation.  False assumption?

[Stormrider51]

There is a common misconception that the dross that floats on the surface of lead are the non-lead metals.  The truth is that once metals are mixed they do not separate back out.  If they had that ability why would they mix in the first place?

Storm

[Daryl]

I shot a PH Volunteer in the 500 yard Creedmore match at Friendship one year.
90 grs of Swiss 1.5fg by weight (weighed and kept in small vials)
Pure lead bullets, also weighed within 2 grains.  SPG lube OK
A single over-powder wad cut from a cereal box.
Velocity spread between shots was 7fps and the first shot was as good as the last.

These loads will burn out a standard nipple in as little as 10 shots.  The platinum nipple is a must.

This is as good as it gets and pretty much sums up what's needed.

A mix of 50:50 pure and WW alloy shot well in some of my rifles.  It is best to start with pure lead from any ML.

The steel or stainless nipple is not good enough for high pressure slug shooting.  Pressures over 20,000psi are normal and need the platinum plug.  I've never used platinum lined plugs in my slug barrel, but changed nipples every trip to the range.  You could watch the accuracy degrade on the targets after 15 or so shots.  I shot without wiping,with a home made lube that worked for me - simply beeswax and bear grease. It smelled poorly.

[451whitworth]

my Lyman 451114 mould (same as item #2641114) has a .300" meplat so it is plenty big for hunting. although i prefer my Lyman 457121 modified with .400" deep hollow point for deer/black bear. i have a PH Whitworth, PH Volunteer, Euro arms Whitworth and Volunteer, Navy arms Rigby all .451 caliber. some of these rifles have .451" bores, some .450" and some .448". none of them throw a 1st shot flyer from a clean barrel. i agree that softer alloy should be the first thing tried. i use an over the powder card, then a lubed wool wad, seated with the ramrod before loading the bullet. as far as bullet size goes i differ from what competative shooters do. i don't size bullets under bore diameter. i size them exact bore diameter so there is mild resistance when loading. another thing i do when going hunting with one of the above rifles is to load a .001" oversized bullet in a clean barrel. i put aside 5 or so bullets from a casting session to be sized .001" over for whatever rifle and give them their own labeled box. this seems to do two things: 1) it keeps the bullet in place on the powder charge in the clean barrel 2) the extra grip the bullet has on the barrel seems to duplicate a bore sized bullet loaded in a fouled barrel. i found this out shooting through the chrony.

[451whitworth]

sorry, had to start a new reply because i filled the available space. to continue, the first shot out of a clean barrel with same diameter bullets was slow (as to be expected) anywhere from 50 to over a 100 fps. the lack of fouling caused lower pressures. so i figured extra bullet diameter (more friction=higher pressure) might help duplicate the higher pressures from the fouled barrel. it's an idea that may or may not work for you. two things i love in muzzleloading are .451" bullet rifles and big bore round ball guns.

[Daryl]

When I shot slugs in a fast twist Bauska .50 cal. barrel I played with, I shot bullets .001" over bore size mostly. It had a crown much like a round ball gun which allowed me to get them started straight if being very careful. My starter and loading rod were appropriatly relieved to match the bullet's nose.

I also made a 'sizer' out of a section of the barrel, like a detached false muzzle and used my loading press to push bullets through it, making them perfectly engraved for shooting.  These, then, were mechanically fitted bullets, stored in a soft pastic ctg. tray (w/cuttout holes) that held the bullets nicely without damage(Flambeau).  I used an oxYoke wad under the bullets and did not have to clean while shooting.   Both styles of bullets grouped well for me at 100 and 150 yards.

[bob in the woods]

I still play around with my " long range" flintlock that I built using a Longhammock .45 cal  1 in 18 twist barrel.  I have a .449 Paper Patch mold [ adjustable] and load them over a card wad, a ball of lube, then a cork wad. Works very well, but the vent liners were/are only good for one target [ 2 sighters, then 10 for score ]  You don't want to have to risk needing to change a vent mid target .]   I am not comfortable with the wear involved in changing out liners that often, so don't shoot it that much anymore.  Tried some berylium copper liners from Dixie G.W. and they seemed a bit better. Perhaps one day I'll invest in a platinum liner.  From 500 yds on , muzzleloading bullet guns are VERY interesting !