Rusting Solution Still Activated? Confused.

[Mattole]

Over a week ago I refinished the metal parts on my Lyman GPR by rusting with Wahkon Bay Tru-Brown 4 times and immersion in a boiling water bath. I doused and rubbed all metal parts with ammonia and then oiled overnight with an anti-corrosion oil called Corrosion-X. A few days later however I noticed that there was a raised gritty texture to the metal and when I wiped it the rag turned nearly black. Concerned that the rusting had not stopped I stripped off the oil with Lava soap and hot water and doused and scrubbed with ammonia again, then saturated the metal overnight with diesel motor oil before rubbing down with denim cloth. It looked great for a few days and then the raised gritty texture emerged again, as if the metal is starting to pit. This time I rubbed and saturated the metal thoroughly with Birchwood Casey Barricade. When I rubbed the metal the rag again came out very dark, but perhaps that is just the diesel oil.

I'm not sure what is going on. Is this emerging of a gritty texture normal, or is the rusting solution still not neutralized? Should I just keep saturating it with the Barricade and rubbing with a piece of denim? Thanks for your suggestions.

[FRJ]

I might try baking soda and cold water carding it with old denim. I've only browned one gun so far but it worked great on that one. Frank

[bgf]

I would try skipping the ammonia step, just wash it off thoroughly, then rinse several times with water, dry (warm if you can) and apply oil immediately, then the next day, and maybe again in the evening.  I think the ammonia may be causing your problems.  If you want to "neutralize", try some baking soda (technically a buffer, if I understand correctly, but it should slow/stop the reaction if there is one) in water after washing the current oil off.

[davec2]

Actually, washing soda (sodium carbonate) is better than baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) for neutralizing the acid in the browning solution.  It is very commonly available.  I put it on a damp folded cloth pad and use it like scouring powder to do the final carding and neutralization in one step after the last browning cycle.  The oil or wax as usual.

[JCKelly]

Along with neutralizing any acids by soda, the water wash can remove chlorides. It is the chlorides that rust the $#*! out of iron. Yes, ammonia neutralizes whatever acid is used in this stuff, but ammonium chloride, known to us Geezers as sal ammoniac, is very corrosive.
Oil alone won't help stop chlorides from rusting the iron.
Washing with water is good.
So is either variety of soda, or lye.

[Mattole]

Thanks for the suggestions, gentlemen. I just called the owner of Wahkon Bay Outfitters to see what he uses to neutralize and he also uses household ammonia applied with a worn Scotchbrite pad, followed by a rinse-off with boiling water. He thinks that the oxidation that I am finding is normal and that I should apply some oil with an abrasive pad to knock the layer down. Hmm..

[Dphariss]

I have never had after rust by simply washing the part with clear water and a soft cloth. Wash, dry, oil.
When rust bluing the boiling takes care of any after rust.

Ammonia is also corrosive as are most soaps. So if you put this stuff on the metal it has to be washed away as well.

Dan

[Dphariss]

PS
Dumping BOILING water over a browned part may convert some or all of the red iron oxide to black iron oxide.
I use room temp or cold water on browned parts.

Dan

[Lucky R A]

Mattole,  I have experienced the same problems that you have had.  I really like Mike's product, and is my go to browning solution, but under some conditions it is extremely hard to get stopped.  I called Mike and got the same advice that you did.  I have even had a barrel that I converted by boiling re-rust after the fact.   I have tried all the above suggestions including a strong lye solution, and still had after rust.  So, what I do now is brown and neutralize with washing soda,  heat the barrel up and spray it down w/ WD-40.  I then let it hang for a day, warm the barrel and scrub it down well with Marvel Mystery oil.  I then hang the barrel and watch it for after rust.  If it starts to erupt again I scrub it down w/ more oil on a coarse cloth.  I watch it for a week and then assemble the gun.  I have had too many assembled guns have to be disassembled to deal with the re-rust to go directly to assembly.  The rusting will stop, but it takes a little effort sometimes.   I have noted that this does not happen all the time, but more so in high humidity times of the year.  I now use Davis browning in the summer and the Wahkon in the winter when I am running a wood fire in the shop, and the humidity is rather low.  I wish I had a 'Do This" answer for you, but that is how I deal with it.  Wahkon Bay browning is great stuff, just a little too great sometimes...    Ron

[dbraw]

I always stop the rusting action with warm water and soda. Then, I hold the barrel with the breech up and pour boiling water down it. As soon as the water evaporates, I pour boiled linseed oil on it. After it cools, I wipe some of the oil off and let it sit for a couple of days. Has worked for me on dozens of rifles for about 40 years.
 I do all the small parts the same way. I also put a small circle of clear tape over the touch hole liner to keep water out of the barrel.
Good luck,
Dan

[Dphariss]

This is an interesting thread.
I have had no problem with after rust. I used to use Wahkon Bay for rust blue, brown and AF stain mixed for rust blue. Never had an after rust problem.
However, I do not go for a heavy rust either. I would imagine that the heavy rough rust I see on some guns would trap or harbor solution that could then continue to rust afterwards.
But I do not know this for sure, just speculation.
Strangely enough where I live I had to mix the two products mentioned to get the Brown to keep rusting on 4150 barrels.
I also found that Pilkingtons rust blue from Brownell's would stop rusting after about 3 coats leaving a pale gray with just a hint of blue. So then went to Wahkon Bay Brown and then Wahkon Bay AF stain mixed with it. Nitric Acid in the browning solution makes for a better color IMO and makes the solution more aggressive.
But note that I live in an area where the humidity is very low in summer and I have to use a damp box or a humidifier to get much rusting in a reasonable period of time.
I have used baking soda wash at times too, if I think of it or decide to 
Dan

[FlintFan]

Simply washing the metal parts with baking soda and water is usually not enough to stop the acidic solution used to rust the parts.  After learning how to brown damascus, where ANY after rusting will completely ruin the finish, I have found that a much more prolonged soak in a base solution is necessary to stop the rusting.  I soak the parts in a bath of a sodium hydroxide solution for about a half hour to completely kill the acid.  You could make a solution with baking soda as well and soak the parts which should do the same thing.  I would use about a cup of baking soda in about a gallon of water.  Make sure to dissolve as much as you can in the water before you put your parts in.  Using warm water will help dissolve the soda.  

[Dave Faletti]

I let the barrel soak for several hours and change out the water a number of times.  The coarser the finish the more that will get trapped in the finish.  Using something to stop the action of an acid may make sense to stop/slow the browning process. However if you aren't removing  all the browning solution with just water you won't be removing all of what you just added and created with the neutralizing agent.   The porous surface will trap water and will most likely still be present when the surface appears dry.  I wouldn't be in a hurry to seal it.  If your tap water has a high mineral content rain or distilled water may be a good idea for the final rinse.   Most of my rifles have a coarse finsh(better for hunting, smooth looks better) and I have had after rust only once.

[kutter]

I had after rust problems w/ Laurel Mtn soln when I first started using it,,and that was for rust bluing.
It contains no acid and uses ferric chloride as the rusting agent. Still slightly on the acidic side of the Ph
scale.

Just boiling the barrels in water again really does little. Any acid or etching agent still there will only combine with the water and form a soln of it. Now your part is soaking in a boiling hot though extremely weak acidic soln.
Warm/hot acidic solutions, no matter how weak,, are not what you want to place metal parts in and expect no further rusting.
It's not going to clear itself of the problem.
It needs to be neutralized and/or flushed from the metal.

With rust blue, I've settled on a fairly simple method of spraying down the completed barrels with common Lysol All Purpose Cleaner.,,currently using lemon scent! though it seems to do no better job than the plain stuff.
(I also use it for the initial cleaner to scub and clean the parts prior to rust blueing)

The parts are at room temp. I liberally spray them with the stuff and them scrubb them with a small wooden backed laundry brush, tooth brush and one of the M16 cleaning brushes.
They cover about all the surfaces corners and knooks on a set of tubes.
Then flush them with room temp water.
Repeat the process a couple of times and dry them off.
I do this all in and over the laundry tubs in the basement and have a simple flexible hose on the water faucet that helps with the flush process.
Canvas shot bags draped over the tub edges protect the bbls when lying accross them and a square of plywood in the bottom protects the bbl when standing on end.

On SxS tubes I then heat them with a torch. That's to dry and drive any water trapped betw the ribs out through a pre drilled weep hole, sight bead hole, or a betw the rib at the muzzle hole I'll drill.
I don't bother on small parts or single bbls.

The water and spray cleaner flushed off the first time carries an amazing amount of (blue in this case) coloring and I suspect rusting soln contaminants.

Once dry, I oil with WD-40 first to drive any other moisture from the steel. Then the next day re-oil with Rem-Oil, G-96, etc.
On the few browning jobs I've done over the years I coated with linseed oil just because.

This also worked nicely on damascus finish work and actually enhanced the look a little IMHO. Even the rust bluing looks a bit more burnished when done this way. Maybe it's just me..

No further after rust problems. But again this was a fix for a problem I had with Laurel Mtn soln.
I've not used the acid based soln spoken of here and can't say wether my technique would also work with it.

[Mattole]

I am feeling great appreciation on this day of thanks for the many suggestions that you gentlemen are providing. If the rusting continues I think I will try a warm bath of washing soda for 30-60 minutes and then carding with denim and something like WD-40.

I have certainly been learning a great deal for my next venture into browning/rust bluing!

Many thanks and a fine Thanksgiving day to you all,

Kevin

[B.Habermehl]

Yup I sometimes have afterrust problems, using Wakon Bay's browns.(All I Use) I have found Deisel engine oil Rotella etc. to help. It has more acid neutraliser additives in it than other oils. Usually the solution will exaust itself within a couple of days. I usually apply the oil to a warm barrel. BJH

[keweenaw]

I had this problem only once.  That gun was wiped down thoroughly with warm soda solution and then oiled.  After degreasing it I soaked it for a couple hours in a tank with a stiff solution of soda and then oiled it with a water displacing oil, end of problem.

Tom

[Mattole]

Yep, next time I think I will skip the ammonia and use a washing soda soak like you did. All told it seems to be the best option for neutralizing the Tru-Brown in particular.

[B Shipman]

I've always used TRU BROWN and love it. I don't like fooling around with after rusting.
After washing, I apply a saturated solution of sodium hydroxide, basically super lye. It ends there. Wear gloves. At this concentration, it will burn you as easily as a strong acid.

[TMerkley]

One thing to also remember about Ammonia. It will also draw moisture over time,  this can also lead to more rusting.  Hence the reason I do not use Hoppes or outers Nitro solvent on Muzzle loaders any more. Even after the cleaning and oiling with 10W30 it still will rust a abarrel.  Not sure what the ingredients are that your browning solution is made from.  Browning and Bluing and parkerizing solutions are all controlled rusting processes.  Some things just take different paths to create beauty and other paths to prevent ugly!
Good luck!

[Daryl]

After a good baking soda & water scrub, I dry the barrel. It's warm from the baking soda scrub, then I copiously douse the barrel with WD40. No after rust.