Selecting lock size for pleasing rifle architecture

[P.W.Berkuta]

I am starting a flintlock rifle for my grand son (he is 5 now). I will give it to him when he is 10. It will be full size. I am planning on following the No. 81 John Bonewitz rifle in Kindig's "Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle In It's Golden Age. The barrel is a GM swamped .45 cal - 38" long. I normally don't have any problems with picking lock size for my rifles but for some reason I am having mixed thoughts on lock size for this rifle. I have a few small Silers - a few large Silers and an M/G lock which is in between the large Siler and the small Siler in size. I want the lock size to give me the best rifle architecture so I am asking the long rifle fraternity on their recommendations from experience. 

[Dphariss]

I am starting a flintlock rifle for my grand son (he is 5 now). I will give it to him when he is 10. It will be full size. I am planning on following the No. 81 John Bonewitz rifle in Kindig's "Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle In It's Golden Age. The barrel is a GM swamped .45 cal - 38" long. I normally don't have any problems with picking lock size for my rifles but for some reason I am having mixed thoughts on lock size for this rifle. I have a few small Silers - a few large Silers and an M/G lock which is in between the large Siler and the small Siler in size. I want the lock size to give me the best rifle architecture so I am asking the long rifle fraternity on their recommendations from experience. 

Small Siler.
It will work well on small guns and pistols if the shaping is right.
Its also one of the best locks as far as flintlocks go.

Dan

[Bill of the 45th]

Have you made a scale drawing yet, and made copies of the locks from the Track catalog.  Thats generally what I do.  Cut out the locks and overlay them to see what fits the architecture best.  Having spent ten days this summer with my three 9 and 10 year old grandsons, they come in all shapes and sizes.  the 9 year old is the size of a 12 year old, and the oldest was the smallest.  You may want to consider maybe scaling it down by 5% or so, which will make it serviceable for quite a while.  Good luck with the project.  The grandparents adage that "If I new they were so much fun I would have had Grandkids first is true!"

Bill

[excess650]

I have to agree, the drawing will yield the answer.  Chambers offers his "gunmaker's flintlock" if the dimensions or shape of other locks aren't just quite what you're wanting.

.....lucky grandson!

[A.Merrill]

    I know there is guys here with more experience than me, but I do have a few guns behind me and I have always used Siler locks until now.
    When I was at Friendship fall shoot Tip Curtis showed me a M&G classic lock and one he had inletted in a gun. With the lock being as wide as a small Siler but a little longer gave this gun a very pleasing long slender look through the lock panel. The M&G locks also has a wider bolster, that helps leave a little more wood in this weak area.
    I just finished inletting a M&G lock in a stock that has a 13/16 barrel and never came close to breaking into the ramrod hole. I also used a commen trigger that is just pinned in the stock and the trigger pull is very lite and the lock throws allot of hot sparks.
    My experience, well it is the first M&G I ever used, but Tip Curtis thinks highly of then and he has allot of experience.    Good Luck    AL

[Mike Brooks]

Large siler.

[Gene Carrell]

I agree with the large siler; but if the architecture calls for it, the  Chamber's Dale Johnson with it's slightly arched plate may help the transition into a slender  wrist.

[Dphariss]

My thinking was that a 10 year old will require some scaling down of the rifle even if full size is the plan.
While it could be the photography #81 is a 50 caliber rifle and appears pretty substantial so some scaling may be needed.

Dan

[rich pierce]

The small Siler sure is small but I used it on a rifle for my son when he was 11.  It had a 7/8" x 36" .50 barrel and a 11.5" pull.  Seems to me, the bigger the lock the easier it is to make the gun look slim in the lock and wrist area.

[Dan'l 1946]

  I'm sure that you know this, but aesthetics aside, the lock should be a great sparker. Nothing will turn a child away from flintlocks faster than poor ignition--at least that has been my experience. My vote would be for whichever Siler best fits your needs.

[David Rase]

Large siler.

Ditto!

[P.W.Berkuta]

All good info and I do like the M&G lock. The one I have is very well made and does spark a lot (with Rich's flints - all I use). I took apart one of my large Silers and my choice has got to be the large Siler. It just makes the rifle look slim and proportioned just right. I made my son a .36 cal Roman nose Penn. rifle when he was 10 and at the time he was about 5 feet tall now he is 6 foot one so I think his son will be tall - he can shoot it off the bench until he gets use to it. Thanks for all your help and I will take some pictures as I go along but I am in no hurry. I just had my hip replaced after 3 years of enduring excruciating pain and am convalescing at home until Feb. so I have some time to think and design. Retirement would be nice if someone would pay for me to sit on my butt and play in the work shop  !

[Mike Brooks]

Large siler.

Ditto!

I consider the large siler to be a fairly small lock. I have used it on pistols ......

[Dphariss]

Large siler.

Ditto!

I consider the large siler to be a fairly small lock. I have used it on pistols ......

To be honest this is a "your mileage may vary" thing but its a very interesting topic that can be discussed.
So I will play "Devil's advocate" here.
I don't build fowlers and don't like really big locks simply for the accuracy thing. A large siler frizzen, for example, produces a lot of shock when it springs open. I have a pair of them on a swivel breech. Will not make that mistake again.
I have a Dale Johnson large Siler on a 18 pound rifle and it does not shock the rifle much. I will put the other Johnson lock I have on a much lighter rifle without fear and if fits the design of the original rifle well.
But its still a great lock. But in a pistol the shock of the frizzen opening will move the gun and this is not good for accuracy. This is the reason I like to use the L&R 1700 for pistols where its correct. Firing the lock does not jar a pistol.
But for smaller rifles the small siler is a great choice and can be used with barrels to 1 1/8" without causing architectural problems.


Its easier to make a nice rifle with a slightly smaller lock than one that is too big. Not saying that a large lock is wrong. Lots of original guns have large locks on them. But the larger the lock the weaker the stock if its slim.
I once made a 1/2 stock rifle with the Large L&R waterproof lock. It was a great lock with some minor tuning. But with a 1" barrel and a 3/8 rod hole and the stock cut to make the proper clearance, about 1/8" covering the rod the lock was just about too big. So much so that I have never used another one.
A small siler with a .900 breech barrel will make a very nice rifle or pistol 1 3/8" deep at the front TG extension and still leave some wood around the lock.

Thin lock mortices can cause trouble with pistols cracking around the lock under recoil especially if a single lock bolt is used.

The rifle that goes with this pistol, they belong to my son. Has a 7/8 barrel and a large siler and it looks fine too.

Dan

[Acer Saccharum]

Make a drawing of the gun profile. Then select a lock that fits the curves between barrel tang and trigger plate properly.

Or select a lock, then draw the profile of the stock.

There are very straight locks, some with a little curve to the bottom edge of the plate, and some that are banana shaped. Each dictates a very different stock style. Combine that with guard choices and you have about ten thousand possibilities. This is what makes this game so much fun, and sometimes so frustrating.

Kind of like the knitting group, with yarn choices, needle size, and pattern variations. 

[P.W.Berkuta]

Dan you make a very good point here and back it up with nice pictures - thanks.
Here is the stock - it was shaped and inletted by Fred Miller some time ago. I told him what I wanted to do and sent him my wood and he fit this profile in. The large Siler is on the left then the M&G  and the small Siler is on the right. I will have to some more "ciphering" and "pondering" on this but so far the large Siler still has the lead -- again thanks for all your help -