Loading Suggestions for J Bartlett & Bros Sporting Rifle

[TNVolunteerEngineer]

I originally asked about this rifle in another area of the forum.  The rifle appears to be an American made version of the English hunting rifle of the 1840s-60s. There are no proofs on the barrel, so if it is English it has been rebarreled. 
The barrel is 1-1/8 octagon its entire length and the barrel alone weighs over 7 pounds.  I finally bought the gun from the consigner and I want to shoot it.   I think the barrel is forged steel, not twist.  I used a plug gauge to determine the bore size.  A .409 plug fits well and slides in the bore smoothly.  A .410 plug is a little tight.  What bullet and patch would be suggested for round balls?  If it is a fast twist barrel for short slugs, what would the suggested bullet diameter be? 

I have a hooked patent breech which is nearly identical to this rifle.   I would like to have a new, larger caliber barrel made for the gun.  Would anyone care to recommend a barrel man for the job?

Thanks in advance for all your help. 

Allan

[Daryl]

Hi Alan - you've done the most important work - that in finding the exact bore size, which we'll call .410"- due to the tight plug. This is plenty close enough. The next step is to determine the rifling twist and depth of rifling.

To measure the rifling twist, and I assume you don't want to pull the plug (but perhaps should to check overall condition), usea rod and jag with very tight cloth patch. I like to size the jag so a doubled thickness of flannelette fits tightly in the bore. Lube the cloth with omething like WD40, and push it down to the breech.

Put a ring of masking tape around the rod, level with the muzzle, with a felt pen mark exactly at 12 or 6 o'clock position and a corresponding mark on the muzzle, itself.  Pull the rod out carefully until it makes 1/4, 1/2, 3/4's or a full turn, but do not pull it out the muzzle. When you stop, put another ring of masking tape around the rod, level with the muzzle. Pull the rod out all the way.  Measure between the bottom edges of the tape and compute the actual  twist.

Once we find out what the twist is, we can advise whether it is for ball or bullet.

[Dphariss]

I originally asked about this rifle in another area of the forum.  The rifle appears to be an American made version of the English hunting rifle of the 1840s-60s. There are no proofs on the barrel, so if it is English it has been rebarreled.  
The barrel is 1-1/8 octagon its entire length and the barrel alone weighs over 7 pounds.  I finally bought the gun from the consigner and I want to shoot it.   I think the barrel is forged steel, not twist.  I used a plug gauge to determine the bore size.  A .409 plug fits well and slides in the bore smoothly.  A .410 plug is a little tight.  What bullet and patch would be suggested for round balls?  If it is a fast twist barrel for short slugs, what would the suggested bullet diameter be?  

I have a hooked patent breech which is nearly identical to this rifle.   I would like to have a new, larger caliber barrel made for the gun.  Would anyone care to recommend a barrel man for the job?

Thanks in advance for all your help.  

Allan

First.
Is it turned round at the muzzle? If so it may be cut with a 30-48" twist or a gain twist ending at a similar twist for use with a cloth patched picket bullet. If its not turned round or drilled for a false muzzle then its almost surely a RB barrel but the twist might still be faster than what current wisdom calls a RB barrel of this caliber. The weight of the barrel indicates it may be a picket rifle. Especially if it has provisions for a "peep" sight. Either as a threaded hole in the tang or tapped hole(s) in the top flat. American general purpose/hunting rifles of the period did not generally use "naked" bullets they are impractical for field use and the Picket is a PITA aside from target use.
Do the plug gages go all the way down to the breech? Sometimes the muzzle is freed a few thousands for easier loading and there is often a few thousandths choke about 4-8" back from the muzzle then the bore may taper to a few thousands larger at the breech. This can generally be determined by a tight fitting lightly oiled patch (like Daryl said) on a jag. But first be SURE its NOT loaded and that the bore is clean of any old oil or grease, dirt etc and free of serious pits which could grab the patch.

The bore size makes it unlikely the barrel is new made, IE a recent rebarrel. Its possible its a rebarrel done in the past but English guns seldom have barrels with no taper and many had a pretty rapid taper so fitting a straight barrel to the stock would have been difficult. But there were American makers making English style guns, especially in the North East.
A 1 1/8" Green Mountain would be a good choice for a rebarrel it this is thought necessary. However, the hooked breech must fit the standing breech exactly to work well. It might even be possible to use the original breech. But taking original guns apart is not a good policy IMO.

Photos would be a great deal of help is determining what the rifle is. Photos of any markings would be helpful as well.
It will require a careful disassembly and examination to assure its safe to shoot even if the bore is good.

Dan

[Daryl]

yes- what he said

[TNVolunteerEngineer]

Good comments all.  I was too afraid of getting a plug gauge stuck, as I was borrowing them, so I didn't place them very far into the muzzle.   I'll measure the twist and post the information soon.  The muzzle is not turned round.  In the meantime, I have found some Sharon 1-1/8 hook breech plugs that will almost fit for use for a second barrel.  I have two plugs that are still raw castings with no holes drilled, and I have found the same plugs on TOTW already drilled and threaded.  My plan would be to make the barrels octagon to just past the fore end, then turn them round to get the weight down.   If it is feasible, I wouldn't mind a 62 cal and a 32 cal barrel.  The 32 would have to be drastically turned to reduce weight.  I wonder how the ramrod hangers would look with a skinny 32 barrel.  The .62 barrel would lose enough metal in the bore to lighten a round barrel.   I welcome suggestions on the project.   Here is a link to an album of photos of the gun:  http://s396.photobucket.com/albums/pp48/Vol423/Gun%20Items%20for%20Sale/J%20Bartlett%20%20Bros%20ML/

[Daryl]

That's a good looking English pattern rifle, for sure and in nice shape.

My current big game rifle is a 14 bore - that's .69, on a 1 1/8" straight barrel 31" long. It weighs 9 1/2 pounds which is perfect for a large bore. The 14 bore is as large as I'd do due to velocity/recoil matters. Any larger and recoil will keep your loads to where trajectory becomes poor.  A 16 bore would be absolutely perfect- for a 1/2 round, 1/2 octagonal tapering from 1 1/8". I'd bet Ed Rayle would make that barrel.  He uses .675" bore which is actually 15 bore, so you can use the 1ounce ball - .662" standard Lyman mould.

Dan has just such a rifle.

In a .41" round ball rifle, I'd use a .400" or .405" ball if I could find such a mould, with a .020" denim patch.

In a .410" fast twist rifle barrel, there are a number of .41 cal. pistol bullet moulds that might work perfectly, as cast in pure lead. Searching pistol sites to find a .410 mould that casts .001" oversize (over bore size) in pure lead would be a good idea, or simply enlarging the mould yourself if needed.  If the twist is slower than 26" and faster than 40", you'll want a very short bullet, in the 160 to 180gr. range, I'd guess. That's for shooting a naked, grooved lubricated bullet.

 If wanting to shoot a picket bullet, ier: cloth patched, Dan and Steve are much better equipped at suggesting these things.

[TNVolunteerEngineer]

The rod turned a half turn in 26.5 inches, so it looks like 1/53 twist.  I hadn't put a patch down the bore before tonight.  Unfortunately there's a rough patch about 6 inches back from the muzzle that feels like it's about 2 inches long.  What would you folks suggest as to how to save this barrel?  Should I try to shoot it first to see how it performs, or is this a candidate for a refreshing or reboring?   Does anyone refresh barrels any more? I'm open to suggestions.

Allan

[Daryl]

ScothBrite wad over the end of a jag, and scrub it full length. Put something like WD40 on the Scoth Brite as a lube and to flush rust, etc

53" is just fine - a round ball twist.

Can you take a really sharp closeup of the muzzle to see the rifling type and the crown?

Too - when you run the 'wet' patch down the bore, does air rush out the nipple?  If not, there might be a load or other obstruction. Mud Dauber Wasps have a nasty habit of making nests inside old rifle and smoothbore barrels as well.

[TNVolunteerEngineer]

Daryl,

There is something in the bore.  It isn't loaded, but there could be a varmint in there.  The nipple is a little bashed so it needs to be replaced anyway.  I'm going to soak it in Kroil for a while first.   

I'll post a shot of the muzzle tonight.

I could get it rebored for about $150, but I'd prefer not to.  I'll try shooting it first.

I have my eye on a modern copy of a Gibbs Long range target rifle with a new custom made barrel and a gorgeous stock.  This gun has a false muzzle and about a 40 inch long barrel in .451 caliber.  If I get it, this rifle may go on the wall after a little refurbishment. 

[Daryl]

Well, this gun deserves to be a 16 bore rifle hunting rifle, with the Gibb's being used for long range target work. hint,hint.

[TNVolunteerEngineer]

I spent a little time with a .410 shotgun brush and some copper wool.  The bore is a lot smoother now, and the "booger" in the nipple must have been dislodged as there is air rushing out the nipple.  Here are two shots of the muzzle.  There are six more shots of the muzzle on the album. 

If I can't get the gun to shoot as is, I'm thinking of having it rebored to 45 caliber for use with a conical bullet.   If I do that, can someone suggest a bullet style, and the proper bore/groove and twist dimensions for that bullet?

[Daryl]

Those are good pictures of the crown.  Thankyou. The crown appears to be perfectly sharp, which will not allow what has become a normal patched ball to be started into the muzzle without cutting the patch.

If mediocre accuracy and having to wipe the bore every shot is what you want, you can shoot it as it is.

To be very accurate & shoot as cleanly as possible with a patched round ball, the crown will have to have an angle cut and then be radiused & smoothed as it appears not to be relieved at all.

If re-bored for slug shooting, pretty much the same re-crowning situation along with a guide bullet starter must be made to fit them muzzle of the rifle.   Be prepared to buy $80.00 platinum lined nipples as the higher pressures generated by shooting slugs will burn out a regular stainless nipple in as few as 10 shots.

[TNVolunteerEngineer]

Now let me post another question:   My guess is that this gun can command a price pretty far north of $1000 as is, warts and all.   If I spend $150 to rebore it, $80 for a platinum lined nipple and $100 to have the barrel, patchbox and trigger guard rebrowned, what have I done to the value?

Allan

[Daryl]

I don't know about in the States, but up here, you'd probably have a $2,000 (or more) rifle - if it remains a round ball gun, that is. I'm not sure anything needs to be re-browned, just some 'repairs' like the tang and nipple area.

As an $80.00 platinum nipple-using rifle, I don't know what it would be worth.  I don't think I'd be interested. 

As a round ball gun it wouldn't need an $80.00 nipple, only a $5.00 one or whatever a stainless nipple costs nowadays.

[TNVolunteerEngineer]

I think that you're right about the gun.  "First Do No Harm" is probably as good for antique firearms as in medicine.  I believe I'll put it up for sale and find myself a contemporary shooter.