barrel failure need advice

[Dphariss]

There have been at least 2 low cost modern replicas from India/Pakistan area fail with BP blanks so if the material is bad enough its possible to have a failure with a blank.

Cast steel was not the same as cast iron, it was a description of how the initial bars were made at the foundry. The final products were not cast.
A blank should not be able the burst a SOUND BARREL. The failure is a classic brittle failure by the looks of it.
Why was it brittle?
Likely an alloy problem that caused the material to be brittle when INTERNAL PRESSURE was applied. High levels of sulfur can cause steel to be brittle. Inclusions are a certainty and these can cause the steel to be brittle or very weak.
They made a lot of bad steel  before better steel making processes and the ability to control the steels content were developed.

Anyway the failure looks like a brittle fracture. The material breaks without significant deformation. Gun barrels should STRETCH significantly before failure.
Some other points.
Synthetic powders do not ALWAYS react as BP will in the same circumstances.
So my policy in this is two fold, and a lot of folks don't like to hear it.
1. Don't shoot substitutes, period.
2. Don't shoot old barrels.
This "event" is a poster child example of why I tell people this.

Dan

[blunderbuss]

  This barrel showed no signs of coming lose at the seams .It fragmented I'm checking on the type of black powder substitute he used. I've never seen one break straight across like this one .It has to be cast . I'll get back to y'all on what kind of powder if I find out.

[Roger Fisher]

  This barrel showed no signs of coming lose at the seams .It fragmented I'm checking on the type of black powder substitute he used. I've never seen one break straight across like this one .It has to be cast . I'll get back to y'all on what kind of powder if I find out.

Thank you, we need that sort of information...

[blunderbuss]

 

  Here's another picture ,see how fragmented the wood is, this picture is also from about 18'' from the breech .the stock splintered but left the ramrod in tact

[JDK]

It is amazing nobody was seriously injured.  J.D.K.

[blunderbuss]

 

  I was off to his left and when he came by me his left hand was as big as a catchers mitt. The next time I saw him his hand was bandaged with his fingers sticking out .I understand he made a full recovery. I have a picture of the exact instant the gun blew up . That large piece seen in the picture was in the air with the ramrod sticking out but had turned around  seemingly smoke still comming from the muzzle, one can see shards flying and see his thumb way out of line. The stock is still to his shoulder. I'm afraid if I posted it it would be all over the net in a negative way. An extremely striking photo

[Dphariss]

  This barrel showed no signs of coming lose at the seams .It fragmented I'm checking on the type of black powder substitute he used. I've never seen one break straight across like this one .It has to be cast . I'll get back to y'all on what kind of powder if I find out.

Not cast. Brittle fracture in steel that is unsuitable for barrels.
I have seen a photo of a modern American made mass produced rifle that broke just like this unfortunately it was at the breech.  About 4-5 inches fragmented. The photos are in an old issue of the Buckskin Report. I could find it if I looked. But will not bother.

Unsuitable material. When this steel was made they have very little idea what the alloy was or what the level of inclusions might have been.

Dan

[blunderbuss]

 

  I figure since it was a .32 the maker thought he be safe with questionable metal the OD is plenty thick .It may have lasted another 100 years shooting 15 gr black powder

[kutter]

That's quite a sight.
Could the bbl have been made up by welding 2 or more sections together.
Then bored thru to true it up and rifled.

It's such a squared off break at that point,,almost like two sections were joined there.

I know little about welding but I'm guessing dis-similar base material(s) combined with improper filler & welding method could leave a nice brittle line there.
Maybe cracked slightly already inside & accumulated some powder there.

Just a thought,,,
 

[blunderbuss]

 

  I think what Dphariss said was right ,also I examined the metal shards and some were bright and some were dark indicating that it may have been cracked for awhile and leaking then the 75 gr of mystery powder finished it.

This barrel also fractured at the breach the portion shown is the forward part about 18" of the rear shattered .I found the breech plug and a small portion of the barrel several yards form where he was standing one piece was at least 20 yards behind him

[mr. no gold]

From "Master and Commander"/Patrick O'/Brian; "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him think." Sounds a lot like this fellow who insisted on shooting a valuable, original gun and lost the whole magilla; gun and any investment, or potential worth. Lots of fools everywhere, no scarcity. Glad that he wasn't hurt, or that no one else was injured.
Dick

[Dave Faletti]

In the guys defense how old is too old to be shooting from a value standpoint?  I have a few things made in my lifetime that are out of production.  I didn't get them to collect dust.  Personally though anything pre 1900 I would view as a colletor and not a shooter.

[blunderbuss]

  If it's safe shoot it .It depends on what it is as to the value some things will never go up no matter how old they get. A good hand made rifle will go up but something like an off the shelf CVA probally won't there are to many of them and there not unique but production guns.

[blunderbuss]

 

  The fellow that had his .32 gun explode was using'' Pioneer Black powder substitute.''

[bob in the woods]

I forgot to ask if this was the first time he used the sub powder . If he had used itbefore, the effects corrosion wise, could have set this up .

[blunderbuss]

 

  I don't know if he ever used that powder before or not I'll try to find out

We've found out since that that powder substitute has had problems with pressure spikes .looks like it was just to much wrong powder in the wrong gun

[FL-Flintlock]

Cast steel was not the same as cast iron, it was a description of how the initial bars were made at the foundry. The final products were not cast.
A blank should not be able the burst a SOUND BARREL.Dan

"Iron" alloy means >2.1% carbon content.
"Steel" alloy means <2.1% carbon content.
They're two completely different alloys.

"Cast" means the item was "cast into a mold", the final finish may be machined or otherwise cosmetically changed but the item is still "cast" be it from a "steel alloy" or an "iron alloy".  Cast iron and cast steel are two completely different substances and it has nothing to do with the foundry operation as both are "cast".  It's also prudent to note for the sake of clarification that a great many 20^th century nitro cartridge barrels were machined from blanks of "cast steel" and are still in service today.  One must take care to not confuse the "casting" of an item from steel alloy with a "continuous pour" as the same steel alloy may be "cast" into molds/ingots or go from furnace to finished product via a continuous pour operation as shown here:


A "blank" charge most certainly can destroy even the most modern nitro-rated magnum barrels.  A "blank" develops pressure and often in a very different manner than when the same amount/type of powder is used to push a projectile.  Thus is why the procedures for loading blank cartridges is as detailed as those concerning cartridges containing projectiles.  One will also note that the vast majority of chemical-based powders are prohibited for use in blanks because they known to produce excessive pressure spikes capable of damaging or destroying modern nitro-rated firearms.  One will also do well to note that the procedure for loading blanks using "real charcoal-base black powder" always include specifics on the type and manner of over-powder wad(s) (and crimp if loaded in cartridge form) to prevent detonation that results in a rapid and uncontrolled pressure spike.