Author Topic: 18th century tools  (Read 10093 times)

Offline Eric Smith

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18th century tools
« on: February 20, 2012, 10:20:43 AM »
My question is this: How many gunmakers make an effort to incorporate the use of 18th century tools and techniques in thier gun building.
Eric Smith

Offline David R. Pennington

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Re: 18th century tools
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2012, 05:33:23 PM »
For me this is a large part of the attraction in building long rifles. I am a hobby not a professional builder and a student of the techniques used in building original guns. The posts on this sight that deal with original tools and techniques are facinating to me. The hobby continues to grow and branch in new directions for me as I learn more about the historical construction of original long guns. The rifle on my bench now has not seen a power tool since I aquired the walnut blank. I like to try as much as my limited knowledge allows to use original methods.
 I can't say all my tools are original 18th. century but another avenue of interest that has grown from this endeaver is the search for tools. My truck won't drive past a flea market or antique store anymore. I now have a small forge in the back yard and have made some of my tools. I'm having a blast and maybe if I live long enough I might even build a real nice gun like some of the beauties I see posted here!
VITA BREVIS- ARS LONGA

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: 18th century tools
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2012, 06:19:22 PM »
If a person is stocking guns from a blank, quite a number of 18th century tools and techniques are used.  The tools might not be from the 18th century, but the designs and processes are still similar.  For much of the gunbuilding process, what worked well then still works well today.

Jim

Offline David R. Pennington

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Re: 18th century tools
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2012, 07:10:25 PM »
It's much more satisfying for me to work with well honed hand tools and watch the shavings curl off than to have to put in earplugs and make sawdust.
VITA BREVIS- ARS LONGA

Offline rich pierce

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Re: 18th century tools
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2012, 02:00:19 AM »
I agree with the above.  Planes and spokeshaves and chisels and rasps and handsaws may differ in appearance and materials used to make them but they work pretty much the same regardless if new or old.  But I have about 6 old planes, a couple drawknives and an old spokeshave that I use and enjoy.  I like restoring old wooden block planes to great function.  I use an eggbeater drill which is not "period" by any means and hope to get to using a bow drill someday.  Jim Everett's posts encouraged me to get a screw plate and I hope to assemble some locks with period style screws etc.  I just play around, simply an enthusiast and my time doesn't matter.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: 18th century tools
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2012, 02:57:48 AM »
Quote
Jim Everett's posts encouraged me to get a screw plate and I hope to assemble some locks with period style screws etc.  I just play around, simply an enthusiast and my time doesn't matter.

I saw a couple of screw plates for sale at the Harrisonburg VA show this past Friday. They were for machine type screws, not wood screws. I started to buy the one for smaller screws but the smallest size (probably a size 4 X ?) had a screw broken off in it. Probably could have removed it but I got concerned about a tap. Could I have used the screw plate to thread a piece of tool steel and then fluted and hardened it to use as a tap for that plate?
Dennis
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: 18th century tools
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2012, 04:51:52 AM »
Yes, but as I understand it the taps don't even need to be fluted, just tapered and with a flat filed on 2 sides.  The threads are more formed than cut and the stock to be threaded is in between the small and large diameters before being formed by the screw plate.  As opposed to a modern tap where the stock would need to be the large diameter.  The threads are sort of half raised, half squished by these old screw plates as I understand it.  Not a lot of experience.  Hope Jim Everett has some internet conection.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Dave B

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Re: 18th century tools
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2012, 05:03:27 AM »
I think that the use of the hand tools is the one of the draws for me. I can actually do a better job on the project by staying away from the Dremmel and power router.
 They were my main tools for lock inlet and roughing out the side plate, escutcheons and patch box inlets. Sharp chisels are much safer and a good router plane solve the problem in a hury.  I have not had so many woopses since leaving the power tools in the drawer.
Dave Blaisdell

Offline kutter

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Re: 18th century tools
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2012, 06:52:22 AM »
I have to get so close to be able to see, using most power tools is just dangerous.
I wear an optivisor all the time while working w/the #10 lens. So I'm in close.
Same one I wear while engraving.

But I do use the mill/drill and a small lathe to do some things. Makes the wife nervous when she sees me with my face up close & personal like that w/a strange machine.
Early gunsmiths had lathes didn't they?

All the shaping andalot of the inletting is done by hand though. I've never felt comfortable using a Dremel or even a router to shape out things like that.
I do take advantage of pre-carve wood though. There's some good ones around and they save time.
Lets me do more and produce more.
I've done all the 'from the blank' I need to for now. But that was all cartridge firearms and along time ago.
 
My first 3 M/Loaders were from planks (50yrs ago),,may I'll get some time and do another from one of the blanks I still have.

I have a router I bought 30yrs ago. I cut some mouldings for book cases I made back then. The thing made me so nervous at a 1/2 million RPM, I've never used it since.
I don't like noise..

Offline James Wilson Everett

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Re: 18th century tools
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2012, 09:22:14 AM »
Guys,

It is really wonderful to see the interest in 18th c gunmaking - the process and tools, not just the finished product.  Of course it is so rewarding to do a job in the hands on, 18th c manner - even if it does take ten times longer than when using modern tools.

Check out the topic with the title - 18th c screwplate use to see the use of this tool and the taps made from them.  Also there is a topic with the title - lockplate screwsthat shows more taps.

Jim


Offline James Wilson Everett

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Re: 18th century tools
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2012, 09:24:53 AM »
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=19172.0

Here is the link to the screwplate use topic.

Jim (in East Africa)

Offline AndyThomas

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Re: 18th century tools
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2012, 05:20:41 PM »
Of course it is so rewarding to do a job in the hands on, 18th c manner - even if it does take ten times longer than when using modern tools.

That's why the pros, who do this for a living, prefer precarve/preinlet stocks and bought componet sets. Their customers neither want nor can afford all this hand work just for the base gun. They'ed rather spend their money on the embelishments.

It seems that only us old guys, living on penson checks, can spend the time to use the old tools.

Just for fun, my favorite power tools in order of importance:
1. electric lights (turn out your lights and go work by the window, and see how much fun it is, especially for old guys)
2. drill motor for ramrod holes (again, especially for old guys)

Andy ;D
formerly the "barefoot gunsmith of Martin's Station" (now retired!)

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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: 18th century tools
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2012, 05:53:29 PM »
Of course it is so rewarding to do a job in the hands on, 18th c manner - even if it does take ten times longer than when using modern tools.

That's why the pros, who do this for a living, prefer precarve/preinlet stocks and bought componet sets. Their customers neither want nor can afford all this hand work just for the base gun. They'ed rather spend their money on the embelishments.

Andy ;D

I'm not sure that's true Andy.  I think it is pretty typical for a professional builder to work from a blank and make all components except the lock, barrel, guard and butplate.  Some may work from precarves and buy parts sets, but I don't think most use this approach.

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: 18th century tools
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2012, 06:13:06 PM »
 For information on stock work, I would recomend Mark Silver's video on stocking a longrifle.  He demonstrates the process using hand tools typical of the 18th century in an efficient and workmanlike manner.  Traditional tools and techniques doesn't necessarily mean slow.

Jim

Offline Bill-52

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Re: 18th century tools
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2012, 06:24:18 PM »
As a hobby builder, and a novice at that, using hand tools is one of my favorite aspects of building a rifle.  It certainly helps me stay out of trouble.  While I will occasionally use a drill press, I view that as a need for greater accuracy.  The hand tools I use are not 18th century but many have been handed down to me by my grandfather and father.  It gives me great pleasure to use their tools.

Bill

doug

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Re: 18th century tools
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2012, 07:13:25 PM »

I saw a couple of screw plates for sale at the Harrisonburg VA show this past Friday. They were for machine type screws, not wood screws. I started to buy the one for smaller screws but the smallest size (probably a size 4 X ?) had a screw broken off in it. Probably could have removed it but I got concerned about a tap. Could I have used the screw plate to thread a piece of tool steel and then fluted and hardened it to use as a tap for that plate?

     the early wood screws that I have seen, have looked more or less like machine screws rather than the coarser and tapered threads that we see today.  One of my screw plates as several screws broken off in it but the material seems to be hard and so far has defied my sporadic attempts to remove them.

     Final point is that remember in the thread about screw plates, the holes were in pairs one for threading the screw and the other for making a tap

cheers Doug

welafong1

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Re: 18th century tools
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2012, 07:28:03 PM »
try heatt han tap on the screw with a small hammer then use wd40 that should do it
Richard Westerfield

Offline Curtis

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Re: 18th century tools
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2012, 09:09:00 PM »
I really enjoy using old tools and have practically made a hobby of looking for them at flea markets and antique shops.  To me using an old tool adds an element of satisfaction to the building process - it may be all in my head but it is enjoyable all the same!  If a person looks around a lot it is amazing how econimically old tools can be purchased.  A little TLC and they are often better than a new one!
Curtis Allinson
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Sometimes, late at night when I am alone in the inner sanctum of my workshop and no one else can see, I sand things using only my fingers for backing

Offline AndyThomas

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Re: 18th century tools
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2012, 04:02:55 PM »
Of course it is so rewarding to do a job in the hands on, 18th c manner - even if it does take ten times longer than when using modern tools.

That's why the pros, who do this for a living, prefer precarve/preinlet stocks and bought componet sets. Their customers neither want nor can afford all this hand work just for the base gun. They'ed rather spend their money on the embelishments.

Andy ;D

I'm not sure that's true Andy.  I think it is pretty typical for a professional builder to work from a blank and make all components except the lock, barrel, guard and butplate.  Some may work from precarves and buy parts sets, but I don't think most use this approach.

Jim, you might be right. I was repeating what a "pro" had said in another thread. Every builder has their own reasons for building and every buyer also has their own requirements. An serious 18th century reenactor wouldn't want a High Art gun, and a High Art buyer wouldn't want a near copy of a 1770 gun.

Using, or trying to use, 18th century tools is something cool for some of us. And it looks like this segment is growing.

Andy

formerly the "barefoot gunsmith of Martin's Station" (now retired!)

www.historicmartinsstation.com

Offline Dphariss

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Re: 18th century tools
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2012, 08:04:35 PM »
Of course it is so rewarding to do a job in the hands on, 18th c manner - even if it does take ten times longer than when using modern tools.

That's why the pros, who do this for a living, prefer precarve/preinlet stocks and bought componet sets. Their customers neither want nor can afford all this hand work just for the base gun. They'ed rather spend their money on the embelishments.

Andy ;D

I'm not sure that's true Andy.  I think it is pretty typical for a professional builder to work from a blank and make all components except the lock, barrel, guard and butplate.  Some may work from precarves and buy parts sets, but I don't think most use this approach.

Jim, you might be right. I was repeating what a "pro" had said in another thread. Every builder has their own reasons for building and every buyer also has their own requirements. An serious 18th century reenactor wouldn't want a High Art gun, and a High Art buyer wouldn't want a near copy of a 1770 gun.

Using, or trying to use, 18th century tools is something cool for some of us. And it looks like this segment is growing.

Andy



You need to define "high art".
There are fully evolved Kentuckys dating to the 1770 period. Wire inlay and/or elaborate carving, engraved patch box etc.
Being decorated and expensive (like a swivel breech perhaps) does not mean the rifle was not to be used.
This is refuted by surviving rifles and even accounts from the past.
Kentucky rifles are FUNCTIONAL ART FORMS or should be at least.
What re-enactors would do today is not 18th century no matter how much they might want to pretend it is. They are contaminated by, 1: other re-enactors they "learn" from and 2: a 20th century mind set and all the history between 1790 and today.
The "plain gun" thing is more likely an outgrowth of the abandonment of carved decoration on guns and furniture in Europe by the late 18th early 19th century. While the carved rifle hung on decades longer in some areas than in England, for example, the austere fashion took over here as well.
By the late 19th century the ML rifle largely survived in the more remote areas of the east, Appalachia for example, where the rifles were often painfully austere. But this had nothing to do with the 18th century American rifle.

Dan
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Offline AndyThomas

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Re: 18th century tools
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2012, 06:02:56 AM »

You need to define "high art".


Dan,

Larry Gardner makes fantastic High Art guns: http://www.artandarms.net/

I believe this is a typical 1770 rifle: http://www.americanhistoricservices.com/html/adam_haymaker.html

Andy
formerly the "barefoot gunsmith of Martin's Station" (now retired!)

www.historicmartinsstation.com