jaco dubbs/dubs/dups jr.

[dyted]

HI GUYS, I'VE BEEN ASKING ABOUT INFO ON JACOB DUBBS JR. ON THIS SITE FOR AWHILE AND I'M CONFUSED BY THE LACK OF RESPONSE. SOME TIME AGO AFTER B EING INTRUIGED BY RCA #59 ( ATTRIBUTED TO JACOB DUBBS JR. IN JOHNSONS BOOK ON THE KENTUCKY RIFLE) I ACQUIRED SOME INFO FROM" THE LANCASTER COUNTY HISTORICAL SOCIETY" THAT INCLUDED AN ARTICLE FROM THE PERMA MAGAZINE VOL.18, 1894  "THE DUBBS FAMILY OF LOWER MILFORD, LEHIGH,CO BY REV. J.H.DUBBS D.D. LANCASTER,PA.  IF WE WISH TO TAKE THE ARTICLE AT FACE VALUE, THEN JACOB D. WAS A WORKING GUNSMITH IN LEHIGH AS EARLY AS 1734, AND FROM A LONG LINE OF SWISS ARMORERS/GUNSMITHS WHO EVEN HAD A FAMILY CREST. THERE SEEMS TO BE A STRONG POSSIBILITY THAT HE WAS WORKING IN BUCKS CO WELL BEFORE VERNER,WEIKER, AND SCHULER. HE EVEN MARRIED A WOMAN NAMED WELKER/WEIKER. NOW PEOPLE HAVE SAID GUN#59 MUST BE ALATER GUN BECAUSE OF IT'S STYLE, BUT WHY CAN'T IT BE THE PROGENITOR, IT CERTAINLY APPEARS TO MY EYES TO BE EARLIER(NOT QUITE AS REFINED, BUT NOT CRUDE, JUST SOMEWHAT OLDER IN STYLE). JUST MY OPINION. SOMEONE MUST ALSO HAVE AN IDEA WHO LED MR. JOHNSTON TO THE ATTRIBUTATION TO DUBBS,PLEASE COMMENT. I HAVE BEEN TO WONDERFUL SITES LIKE MR.ERIC KETTENBURGS AND BEEN TREMENDOUSLY IMPRESSED WITH HIS RESEARCH, VERY SCHOLARLY. SOME PEOPLE THINK IT'S CONTEMPOARY TO VERNER ETC. TO ME IT'S LIKE SAYING YOUYR GRANDPA LOOKS LIKE YOUR BROTHER! WHOEVER THE ACKNOWLEDGED EXPERT IS PLEASE GIVE A REAL RESPONSE TO THIS SPECULATION, BECAUSE THAT'S ALL THIS CAN BE. BUT IT MIGHT BE A STEP TOWARDS AN ANSWER. D-YTED

[rich pierce]

really hard to read with all caps.

Hi guys, I've been asking about info on Jacob Dubbs jr. On this site for awhile and I'm confused by the lack of response. Some time ago after being intruiged by RCA #59 ( attributed to Jacob Dubbs Jr. in Johnsons book on the Kentucky rifle) I acquired some info from" the Lancaster County Historical Society" that included an article from the Perma magazine vol.18, 1894  "the Dubbs family of Lower Milford, Lehigh,Co by Rev. J.H. Dubbs D.D. Lancaster,PA.  If we wish to take the article at face value, then Jacob D. was a working gunsmith in Lehigh as early as 1734, and from a long line of Swiss armorers/gunsmiths who even had a family crest. There seems to be a strong possibility that he was working in Bucks co well before Verner,Weiker, and Schuler. He even married a woman named Welker/Weiker. Now people have said gun#59 must be a later gun because of it's style, but why can't it be the progenitor, it certainly appears to my eyes to be earlier (not quite as refined, but not crude, just somewhat older in style). Just my opinion. Someone must also have an idea who led Mr. Johnston to the attributation to Dubbs,please comment. I have been to wonderful sites like Mr. Eric Kettenburgs and been tremendously impressed with his research, very scholarly. Some people think it's contempoary to Verner etc. To me it's like saying your grandpa looks like your brother! Whoever the acknowledged expert is please give a real response to this speculation, because that's all this can be. But it might be a step towards an answer. D-yted

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[rich pierce]

DYTED, it's hard to get a response when you ask for the acknowledged expert to give his/her thesis on the gun.  I am not that person but I have an opinion.  If you forget all you know about J. Dubbs the person and look at the rifle and compare it to others, how early do you think it looks?  Maybe you could compare it to the Christians Spring rifles, the early Dickerts, the early Schroyer-attributed rifles, the early Isaac Haines rifles.

In my opinion it could be a Revolutionary War era rifle based on width of buttstock etc.  I do not see it as earlier as it looks like a longrifle to me, lacking leftover European style, which I expect to see on a 1760's rifle for example.

[Tom Currie]

Dyted, I believe info on Dubbs is extremely scare and that is my guess as to why you are not getting a response here. Sounds as if you also assume someone here has thoughts on Mr Johnson opinions regarding RCA 59 and is willing to share whatvever they might know. I can tell you that folks here will often reply to requests more openly when they know who is asking. That's just a suggestion.

Rich Pierce's suggested approach to evaluating # 59 by comparing it to early rifles we know more is sound advice.   

[dyted]

first off, i never learned to type, so i apologize. my name is don whitehead. i wasn't being snide when asking for someone with expertise. i don't know why i would forget what i have found out about jacob dubbs and my question is still if something is seminal or first how can you be sure by comparing it to what may have come from it. thanks don whitehead

[rich pierce]

Don, the grouping of rifles Shumway did in his books was the best he could do, and someone else may have done it differently.  The rifle you speak of could have as easily been put in with Lehighs as Bucks County rifles by style.  It lacks classical Bucks Co features such as the big skirted entry thimble, etc. but has others.  Many now think the Verner/Schuler/Weiker rifles are closer to 1790-1810 than the Revolutionary War period, so if you want to compare 59 to them, yes, it appears earlier.  The wide buttplate and what appears to be imported furniture make me think it may be more or less contemporary with one of the Isaac Haines rifles (don't have the book on me so can't give you a number).  Often later rifles in a series have narrower buttplates, more curvature to the buttplate, barrels with less thickness at the breech, less swamping of the barrel, fewer European features, and more stylistic motifs that define them as belonging to a school.  Is 59 an early rifle compared to others we know which seem related?  Yes.  Does it appear to be a 1740's, 1750's, or 1760's rifle to me?  No, not when it compared in mass and etc to many we consider 1770's rifles

[Eric Kettenburg]

All of the attribution to Jacob Dubbs was because someone turned up that broken buttstock - of the same kind, if not the same guy - with the initials "JD" on the thumb inlay.  That's it.  It's fairly silly, but there is always an underlying drive to attribute something to SOMEONE, ANYONE, and so there are these JD initials and after scouring the books a bit, aha here we go.  That's really all there it to it. 

To my knowledge, there has been no new information to turn up anywhere regarding Dubbs/Dubs or however you want to spell his name.  Part of the problem is that most of the pre-Rev Bucks Co. tax records and other assorted records were permanently lost.  I don't remember now if it was a flood or fire situation, but a lot of the old paperwork was lost and never archived.  Secondly, many of the "gun writers" pre-Kindig would go through the old surviving records and assorted county "History of..." books, and anyone who was noted as a "smith" was automatically assumed to be a gunsmith.  Blacksmith, locksmith, tinsmith, nailsmith, or just some dude named Smith - they were all gunsmiths to the authors in the first half of the 20th century.

As far as the gun in question as well as the small number of others that look to be of the same style and/or use the same import furnishings, I personally have a hard time seeing them any earlier than say the late 1760s or early 1770s when compared to the current body of physical evidence as a whole.

[Eric Kettenburg]

I remember speaking to a guy at Dixon's a bunch of years ago - maybe 6 or 8 or 10 (getting old!).  He was a family descendant, and while he had come up with some genealogical information to prove that the guy actually existed, IIRC he had never been able to find any documented evidence that the guy actually was a gunsmith or had built guns.  Just going by memory here.

[dyted]

I just want to thank everyone who has responded and I could try to figure out how I could post the article from the Perma article by Rev. Dubbs.   Thanks again, Don Whitehead, P.S.. Mr. Pierce, I live in Hillsboro, mo. just outside of STL