Attic Find, No Name on Barrel, This Butt Stock, Patchbox

[AntiqueGuns]

Hi Fellows, this is a gun that I found, it comes from Montana, with heavy thick butt stock, patchbox.  It appears original flint, but No maker on barrel.



Attic Find Full Stock Rifle, with heavy thick butt portion to stock, tiger striped maple stock, with muzzle indentations in muzzle. (I thought it had been fitted for a false muzzle, but apparently the indentations are simply decoration.)   Tight european fine grove rifling. It is about .50 cal. It has a Maslin marked lock, no maker on barrel, with overall heavy dark patina. The patchbox has 6 inserts, and I am not certain of origin. The hammer is not re-enforced. The forearm has 3 key escutcheons all original silver. Areas of raise carving around lock, triggerguard and escutcheon back side of lock. No maker on barrel, with a filled dovetail behind rear sight. Heavy butt estimates age from 1800-1810. It has a note inside the patch box that states the gun comes from a family in Montana and has been in their family for at least 3 generations. It has a replaced wood ramrod. It weights at least 15 pounds. IT has had some paint drip on it at some time in it's life.  It has a 37 1/2 inch barrel with 1 1/2 inches across the barrel flat.


This is not my gun, it has been consigned to me.  We took the barrel off, and it has been shortened from the breech end, the key attachments have been moved back approximately 3 inches. It weights about 16 1/2 pounds, and no maker or barrel maker name is on the underside of the barrel.
 Regarding the paint a professional can do all sorts of things, but I would only let an expert try to remove that.
I am not sure about what other numbers people are asking about.

[AntiqueGuns]

If I knew everything about these guns, I would not come here for advise.  In Post civil war guns, such indentations in the muzzle are to hold a false muzzle in place.  The fine grove, deep groved rifling in 1870s guns is of German origination, those some American made guns of that era had it like the Peabody rifle.  I forget the maker name that in known for such rifling.

If you don't like my postings, I can always stop posting. 

[tallbear]

Antique Guns
Theres nothing wrong with your posting.Just ignore the peanut gallery.

Mitch Yates
ALR Moderator

[oakridge]

Am I missing something here?  I have no clue what you're talking about, unless something has been deleted. Oh, and I like your postings. Keep 'em coming.

[eddillon]

IMHO, I don't think that the holes in the muzzle face are for a false muzzle.  looks more like deeply impressive decoration.

[mr. no gold]

Nice find, Ron! Thanks for letting the rest of us have a look. This one is hard one to pin down, but let me take a wild flyer here. I see a possible New York State origin for this gun. The muzzle marks are quite interesting, as is the tight rifling pattern. The engraving on places like the patchbox lid, triggerguard, side plate and elsewhere may have been influenced by New England styles. So, it could have been made up in that region. Without a signature, (did you look under the barrel?), it is a guestimation as to where.
Maslin sent locks all over, and they show up in unlikely places. The carving is interesting, too, but doesn't provide much of a clue here. Good luck tracking it down and please let us know when you do. 
It's great to see an original flint gun in 100% closet condition. Could you possibly give us some numbers on this beauty? Thanks again.
Dick

[Habu]

Thanks for posting this!  I keep looking at the pictures and mumbling "omiggod" to myself.  I think I'm in love. 

As Mr. No Gold wrote, can you possibly give us some numbers?  Is the barrel parallel-sided, or tapered/swamped?

What would something like this be for?  Over-the-log matches? 

[Bob Roller]

The multi groove bore is definetly European,possible German but also possibly French. The indentations on this barrel are decorative. A false muzze has pins and there are holes drilled into the barrel to accomodate them. The best makers usually had one pin larger that the others so it only fits one way or an irregular spacing to get the same effect/

Bpb Roller

[tallbear]

To clear up some confusion,yes something was deleted .

Mitch

[The other DWS]

"In general"  false muzzles were a pretty serious target shooting item.  while the muzzle indentations are deep I don't think they are deep enough for the alignment pins on the typical false-muzzle.  And drilling that many pins would be a real bear.  On a rifle with a false muzzle I'd also expect to see some provision for a fairly advanced target sight arrangement.   It does not appear to me to be a target rifle, at least of that type----which takes nothing away from the rifle at all.   

All that said, it is an incredible find and seems to be in well preserved and well-loved condition.    I am positively green with envy.   congratulations

[TMerkley]

Is it possible that the paint can be removed without injuring the finish of the rifle?

[Dphariss]

Very interesting heavy match rifle. With a barrel this large it must weigh about 18-20 pounds. I am just doing final finish on a rifle with  1 1/4" x 44 x 50 cal., it weighs about 18 pounds.
But its not a false muzzle gun, 8 pins would be a little excessive, very difficult to get on and off. On a rifle such as this it would have to have been installed when the gun was 20-40 years old. Since the false muzzle dates to about 1840.
Rifling is a little different for an American rifle of this era. But there were many variations and the English did a lot of barrels with 9 grooves and up.
Pan and frizzen are a little strange.
Very interesting rifle.

Dan

[Dphariss]

On second look the barrel appears to be tapered.
Would be interested in how much the rifle weighs.


Dan

[WElliott]

Keep posting, AntiqueGuns!  You have a handsome rifle in untouched condition, worthy of owning and caring for, wherever it was made.  Congratulations and thanks for sharing with us.

[Swampwalker]

I'll chime in on the 'keep posting' message - I really enjoy looking at the guns you post. 
What a great rifle - the lines look like Lancaster, but the patchbox and engraving don't, and I've never seen rifling like that on a Lancaster rifle - call it 'polygroove' riflling perhaps?  I wonder what the twist is?  And yes, the lock looks reworked.  The bridless pan doesn't fit the quality and age of the lock.

[Tanselman]

Neat rifle with some nice details. I agree with Dick's assessment (Mr. No Gold) of New England details in the work. I think when we see New England influences, such as engraved patterns, but can't place a gunmaker, we should keep in mind that a few Kentucky-style guns were made in lower Canada. American gunmaker Benjamin Mills, of Kentucky fame, got his start in Toronto, Canada, and while he didn't make this rifle, he did make some curly maple stocked rifles up there. Just a thought.  Shelby Gallien

[Fullstock longrifle]

Looks like he put it up for sale on his site now.  By the way, I don't have a dog in this fight, this is just an FYI in case anybody is interested.

http://www.antiqueguns.com/auction/item.cgi?robles/robles-43780

FK

[JTR]

Optimistically priced! 

John

[Tanselman]

I think this gun went up last year and didn't get a bid, neat rifle but hard to place, so we'll see what happens this year. Shelby Gallien

[Fullstock longrifle]

Optimistically priced! 

John

I agree.

FK

[timM]

I first saw this rifle maybe 6  -7 years ago offered for sale at the January Antique Arms show in Las Vegas.  The untouched aspect was really appealing to me along with the fact that it had gone west. 
 
Antique Guns, thank you for your postings.  tim

[Swampwalker]

It always amazes me what an antique longrifle can bring, esp. one from a famous make or western history connection.  If I may be blunt, what is a more realistic value for a gun such as this?

[The other DWS]

I looked at the rest of his "auctions" .
 On the few things I felt familiar with I found his pricing to be awfully "optimistic" as well as some "interesting" descriptions. 
FI: take a look at the "Indian trade gun"  with the elephant stamped on the lock, and the barrel stamping on the "22 rf" Win. lo-wall