British Preference?

[Jim Kibler]

http://www.peterfiner.com/current-stock/item/1208/

http://collections.royalarmouries.org/index.php?a=wordsearch&s=item&key=WYTozOntpOjA7czo3OiJtb25sb25nIjtpOjE7aTowO2k6MjtiOjA7fQ==&pg=1

Here are a couple links to examples.  For the royal armories collection link, click on the thumbnails to the right to see the after "restoration" photos.

The long gun at the Peter Finer site has obviously had the barrel re-blued and the lock heavily cleaned at the very least.  Use the zoom feature look at the engraving cuts in the lock.  No corrosion, patina, crud or nothing in there.  Look at the cock carefully and its clear it was once corroded. 

Here's my view on this subject.  The British have had a tradition of guns being cleaned / refurbished that goes back many centuries.  I think remnents of this tendency still exists to some extend.  At least such practices are not looked down upon as harshly as they are in this country.  In other words, if you scrub the corrosion / patina off a good longrifle you will take a HEAVY hit in the pocket book.  At the very least, it's not as big of a deal in Europe and England.  I don't think this can be argued with.  Also in talking to people who knew Lynton McKenzie well, they have conveyed stories from Lynton where he mentioned how acceptable such practices were, to the extent of even re-cutting engraving.  I believe he took part in these practices.

Now, I will say that personally I don't care for this practice, and think there is likely a cost to it, but I will stop short of saying it's wrong.  I won't concede that it doesn't happen and at a much higher frequency than here.  For good quality guns, there is no doubt more sensitivity to these issues in this country, national pride aside.  Just the way I see things.....

[vtbuck223]

Thanks again for the the great responses and discussion. With all due respect Feltwad....I believe that I asked this question in the right place. I certainly didn't mean to start an international incident....just an honest question. Having said that...it sure would be interesting to see this dicussion take place on a British site. If you want to ask the question...I will certainly read the responses.  The word "preference" in the title of my post seems to be approprate....and everybody is entitled to their own. I  greatly appreciate the knowledge that comes out of the afore mentioned British sites...and have been the beneficiary on more than one occasion.  Here are just a couple examples of recent posts that caught my attention and prompted the question to begin with. On the first one notice the patina on the brass furniture that has been wiped out in subsequent photos. If anybody on the site had an opinion that it would be better to leave it alone...they cetainly didn't share it. And...I have seen this repeatedly...and no one even talks about leaving the patina...so I assumed that it was standard practice there to wipe them clean.  The second one is just a standard example of the pieces that are regularly posted....and boy does it shine. Again...I have never even seen this issure brought up in any of the posts there....which prompted my initial question.
http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/13790/CLARK-flintlock-carbine-information-request
http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/13814/E-I-C-Musket

[JTR]

I have a Brit friend, although he's lived in the US for many years now, but he wholeheartedly agrees that shinny new looking is the best way. And despite my best efforts to 'teach' him the correct way, whenever he gets his hands on a nice old rifle he continues to buff it up like new.
He's into US Civil War guns, and claims that back home (England) you would never want to display a collection of grungy looking weapons.

To each his own; I cringe as the patina goes down the drain, while he smiles with satisfaction.

John

[Fullstock longrifle]

I think the over cleaning of guns was more prevalent back in the 50's and 60's in this Country.  I've seen guns from old collections that never seem to tone down because they've been polished so much.  I'm familiar with an older collector who still polishes his collection once a month with pledge.  Not my taste.

Frank

[Dphariss]

More situational stuff.

When the original finish is removed/modified then information that is important to the BUILDER, but irrelevant to the collector may be lost. So like many things in discussing old firearms there in no one rule the covers every situation.
Rather that wonder why the British like clean guns perhaps we should ask why Americans want them dirty.
Who invented this fad?
Thats what it is after all.
What was the rifle supposed to look like when in use. A grungy hulk or a well cared for firearm?
We all know the answer. But someplace back down the road, probably in the 1930s or 40s if not later, someone started the "don't touch the patina" fad and now we are largely stuck with it.

Dan

P.S. Pledge? 

[smart dog]

Hi,
Dan, you raise a good point.  Why do we value the old patina?  If a gun is cleaned, polished, and restored without losing important marks and details, why do we prefer the "right out of the attic" look?  Corrosion and dirt can obscure important metal marks.  Perhaps a gun handed down over time in a cleaned, polished, and care-for state might stand a better chance of a happy fate than one allowed to become a relic, buried in the attic, and eventually lost.  Are we overly sensitive to the concern that important historical information will be lost or is it that we agree that competent cleaning and polishing can be done but the risk that a hack does it is too great and we simply prefer to discourage the practice altogether?

dave

[James Rogers]

I think the dingy dirty "fad" grew into a standard with many after witnessesing the destruction of important pieces at the hands of hackers. Today, just by cleaning it up a bit you lose half of the potential buyers and those who remain will only consider a percentage of what they would have shelled out for a grimy, rusty mess.

[Feltwad]

Has I have said  there is good restoration and bad restoration most of my restorations are to save antique guns from ending up been scraped for parts they are part of our gun heritage and should be preserved.I have enclosed images of a typical restoration  if this is what is called British Preference ,I prefere to call it saving  it for the future
Feltwad
Before

After

Before

After

[Feltwad]

I thought there would have been a comment to the images I posted . But too myself and most collectors this is what on this side of the pond  we associate has British Preference, not those buffed to a mirror finish
Feltwad

[smart dog]

Hi Feltwad,
Thanks for the photos. I believe you posted them before or ones very similar, to which I referred in my first post in this thread.

dave

[timM]

If a weapon has a long history of having been polished bright, maintaining that polish may be an easy choice to make.  Original maintenance practices carried through to early collectors looking to improve right on into a trend.   

Consider U.S. martial pistols and rifles that had an original polish finish that have been kept that way, again early collectors looking to improve/restore.  Patina lost is patina lost, pretty difficult to replace regardless of view point.

I have no difficulty with the concept of European collectors having gained a preference for patina, maybe there is just a lot of water under the bridge (a lot of existing polished arms) .....and as always there are exceptions.  tim

[Dphariss]

If a weapon has a long history of having been polished bright, maintaining that polish may be an easy choice to make.  Original maintenance practices carried through to early collectors looking to improve right on into a trend.   

Consider U.S. martial pistols and rifles that had an original polish finish that have been kept that way, again early collectors looking to improve/restore.  Patina lost is patina lost, pretty difficult to replace regardless of view point.

I have no difficulty with the concept of European collectors having gained a preference for patina, maybe there is just a lot of water under the bridge (a lot of existing polished arms) .....and as always there are exceptions.  tim

But patina is really not important in the study or appreciation of the firearm. In fact it can be a detriment.
But having idiots clean guns is worse.
There is no easy answer to this.
Its a case by case thing I suppose as it always seems to be.

Dan