How thin for the webb?

[Ohioan]

After seeing the posts in the for sale section I decided to borrow the Accoutrements books from the library. 

The first rifle in the first book is a Dickert that Mr. Johnston used to own.  In the picture showing the bottom of the lower forearm you can see where the wood has worn away exposing the ramrod hole.  I wondered if it was runtout, or if the web was just so thin that is was worn away with use.  So, I asked Mr. Johnston and he said it is from wear. 
I find this interesting.  The web was so thin that it wore away with use.

I first though, wow, that would be scary drilling a whole that close, then I though, no, he just thinned the wood by working the outside down.

Is there a way to tell how thin the web is? (Other than drilling a hole)

Does anyone know how thin the web would've been on the Dickert?

How thin do most of you take that web?

[David Rase]

Ohioan,  My standard and most commonly used web thickness is 3/16".  I have tapered the web on many rifles from 3/16" to 1/8" and vice versa.  I have had requests for some as thin as 1/16" at the breech.  A lot depends on the style and or school of rifle the maker is trying to duplicate.  You must also remember that drilling 42" and longer holes is not an exact science and there is a tolerance factor that must be considered.  I tell my customers that I can normally hold a + or - 1/32"
DMR 

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Ohioan, I think you are referring to the wood along the BOTTOM of the lower fore-end - under the rod hole.  In my opinion, this wood is often left much too thick by us who would emulate the longrifle.  So I am going out on the limb to say that 1/8" is the maximum, and 1/16" the minimum.  Otherwise the stock from the barrel to the trigger guard is way to thick and clunky looking.  I've built them that way, and don't like the look at all.

Now, one of the most important considerations, to achieve the slim vertical dimension, is to have the WEB between the barrel and rod hole as thin as you can get away with.  I think David is speaking of this web, rather than the bottom of the fore-end.  Together with a minimal web and a tapered rod in a 5/16" rod hole, this gives a person the best chance to get the narrow profile.

How do you measure these things?  Drill a 1/16" hole through the web in the barrel channel at the breech, into the rod hole.  Insert a wire into the hole and measure where it stops on the bottom of the rod hole.  Transpose this measurement to the side of the stock opposite this location, and see where the bottom of the rod hole is on the profile of the stock.  This will show how much wood remains below in the lower fore-end.  You should already have several things drawn on the wood - the bottom of the barrel channel, the web, and the rod hole.  Now you can draw the bottom line as well.

[B.Habermehl]

I addition to what Taylor said, I allso will drill a hole where the front triggerguard extension will be inletted. And measure from the bottom of the stock to the ram rod. The hole will be covered by the front of the trigger guard.  Iam a direct measure type of guy.   BJH

[rich pierce]

I'm with BJH on this one.  I establish that dimension (1/8" is a maximum) at the entry thimble and at the end of the ramrod hole under the guard.  If the barrel is swamped you may have a nice natural slope from the guard to the entry thimble.  You want the underside of the belly to appear to slope a little that way for many styles.

[Ohioan]

I know I didn't take enough off the bottom of mine.  I just didn't know any better. 

I appreciate the tips and thoughts on this subject.  Sine money is so tight right now I can't actually build.  So I just sit around and ponder these things, and study as much as I can.

To think of it now, 1/8 seems thick to me.  I should drill in the areas specified above to see just how thick it is on my gun.

[Ian Pratt]

  Hey Zach, if you can make it up to the Log Cabin on the 13th we'll be going over this part of layout on blanks for the guys in the class and getting them started building, you are welcome to come and hang out. We'll be there from 8:30 am to 6pm
  The type of forend wear you described is often refered to as  "saddle wear", sometimes saddle wear is the likely cause and other times it appears that originally the wood was just worked down exceptionally thin there and broke through.

[Jim Filipski]

  I should drill in the areas specified above to see just how thick it is on my gun.

Zack, Yes most definitely. You need to take a few "soundings of the web, Rod and Bottom of rod hole before inletting a lock ( or going much further). So that means after you have the barrel in to the proper depth. you need to see where everything "inside" falls and draw it on the outside of your stock- preferably on both sides) I usual drill down near the breech ( bottom of barrel channel) with a 1/16" bit Then halfway to the ramrod entry Then about 1 inch back from the entry. I take a few readings from each of these holes. First read the bottom of the barrel channel at each of these areas, transfer to the sides of the stock and connect the marks this + the barrel channel. Next insert a rod in the ramrod hole and measure through the holes to the top of the rod. Transfer to the outside of he stock and connect the dots This -between the two lines is your web thickness. Then pull the rod out and read again at the three holes and transfer to the sides of the stock. connect the dots and this is the bottom of the rod hole. now on the outside, two sides of the stock I mark about 3/16" at mid lock area and 1/8" at ramrod entry area. I connect these two marks with a line. This is the bottom of your longrifle. More wood then that and it will be a "clunker" ( if you are making an American Longrifle). As you work you will need to replace these marks as they wear away. This shows the thickness of your lower forearm as well as you web thickness for locating your front lock bolt.
Hope this helps
Jim

[Ian Pratt]

Here's a good example of the kind of wear you were talking about





  I think this was likely caused by saddle wear. It doesn't show well in the pictures but the wood bellies out  all around where it broke through. The ram rod is not original to the rifle.
   The balance point for carrying the rifle is between the entry and next pipe - typical long heavy barreled mountain rifle. Even though the barrel shows evidence of having been cut back a couple times you can see where over time finger pressure probably broke away the thin wood alongside the barrel

[rich pierce]

Might be off topic but show us more, Ian!

[Dave B]

I  used to leave loads of wood under the forearm 3/16"+ till I saw some originals and started sliming things down. You want to be careful though if you are going to be using a aquafortis finish be careful when you heat the underside of the forearm. I caused mine to spit on two different occaisons. The wood was 1/16 inch thick and I got it too hot. I would not take it beyond 1/8" or be extreemly careful with how you heat it or avoid using AF if your runing under 1/8."

[b bogart]

Ian
Is the ramrod hole drilled a little off center in that pic? My eyes may be decieving me. Even the old timers did that? I'm looking for excuses
Bruce

[Ian Pratt]

Bruce, there is no ram rod in the gun in the close up picture, what you may be seeing is the side wall of the hole. It's drilled straight

I don't want to shift gears from Zach's post so I'll put some more pictures up in antiques

[Rich]

An 1/8 inch of wood under the ramrod is enough. What I learned (the hard way) is to leave the area quite thick until after the ramrod hole is drilled. A couple of rifles ago, my drill hit a tiny knot. Rather than cut it, it ripped it and tore though the bottom of the forestock. There was 1/16 of wood thickness where it tore out. What I do now is leave 1/2 inch or more, drill the hole, drill a couple of 1/16 inch test holes in the barrel channel to determine the exact location of the ramrod hole, mark it on the outside of the stock, then thin the bottom of the forestock. Since the ramrod hole is round, the area of 1/8 inch wood is very narrow, you can go thinner if needed.

[JTR]

Zach,
I don’t know about Mr. Johnson’s rifle, but the web thickness between the barrel and ramrod hole on my 1790ish Dickert measures about 0.145”.
The thickness between the bottom of the rod hole and the bottom of the stock is probably less, as the rod has worn a hole through to underneath the forward finale of the trigger guard, and also into the lock mortise.
The ramrod entry thimble measures 0.380” inside diameter.
The depth of the stock ( barrel out ) measured just behind the entry thimble is 1.215”. 
The barrel at that point is 0.990” thick, and at the breach it measures 1.040” thick.
Overall, it’s a pretty hefty rifle, nicely proportioned, but not what you’d call slim and sleek.
Hope this helps.
John