Engraving confusion

[Ezra]

First off, I know very little about engraving other than what I've read.  The one thing that continues to confound me are the type of gravers.  What I mean is, can someone show (pictures would be nice) the different types of gravers?  Are there differences between those used by hand and those used with the hammer?  I know there are different shaped tips(?), my confusion is whether the hand gravers are different from, for lack of a better term, non hand gravers.  Help.
Thanks guys.


Ez 

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Ezra, although there is a learning curve with engraving, once you get into it, you'll be surprised how quickly you get satisfying results.  Your best bet is to acquire a book or two, and perhaps a tape or DVD as well.  Since you may not have an instructor handy, this will get you started and build your confidence fast.
I bought my chisels from Brownell's - called die sinker chisels.  They are for chase engraving, that is tapping with a light hammer.  I've been using the same chisels for nearly forty years, but they are in need of replacement now, being sharpened down to lengths too short to be comfortable now.
Others will add to this, and give advice as to good supply depots.  There is huge talent on this site.

[Dphariss]

Find Lynton McKenzie's videos. The first one will clear up the confusion over the different graver types you need.
http://smartflix.com/store/video/457/Engraving.
You will not be sorry.
A 3/32" square will do most of what is needed for engraving a Kentucky (or almost any other firearm). A couple of flats will fill in the rest.
Dan

[Paddlefoot]

Sharpening the tools and understanding how to get the best performance out of them is the toughest part for me. Much patience required.

[David Rase]

Ezra, 
     Like Taylor, I also use die sinkers chisels.  I bought mine from Brownells some time in the mid to late 80's.  I have 3 of them, a square graver, the work horse which does 90% of my engraving, a chisel or flat engraver used for cutting the diamonds and half diamonds in the nick and dot type boarder and a round bottom engraver.  I bought the smallest die sinkers chisels Brownell's offered and ground them to shape.  My square engrave is getting shorter by the year due to as I stated earlier, it is my work horse.  I plan on forging out my next set of engravers from some spring steel.  No particular reason why I want to make my own except I can.  I think I have wanted to make my own since I took Wallace Gussler's engraving class at Western Kentucky and seen that he forged out his own.  They had a certain charm about them.

[Dave B]

Ezra,
The use of the chisel is mostly what you should focus on because it is what was used by most of the engravers when it came to Kentucky rifles. That being said I am sure there were some makers out there that had used push gravers for some of their work due to the minute detail of the engraving done. Not that you cant do really fine engraving with a chisel but that copper plate engraving is mostly a sliver smiths expertise using push gravers. Looking at the work on some of the late golden age engraved rifles shows that level of work like that done by John Noll (Chambersburg), Jacob Kuntz and Haymaker (Philadelphia) Is the equal of the silversmith of the time. This makes me wonder if infact they may have used a push graver for some of the work. If you have not yet started your library on engraving I would recomend the book by Jame B. Meek The Art of Engraving as an excellent resource.
When I first started trying to engrave I was using a huge square graver like what I had seen Wallace Gussler use in the Gunsmith of Williamsburg. With a two pound hammer for chasing it. I have since learned that a finer chisel and lighter hammer for chasing is a better way to go. The most used engravers tools will be first the square graver, second the flat and then the round. It also depends on the style of the engraving your planning to do which will help the most. Liners are great but can be over used if not too careful.
Here's what a very few of the many styles look like.

[Dphariss]

Ezra, 
     Like Taylor, I also use die sinkers chisels.  I bought mine from Brownells some time in the mid to late 80's.  I have 3 of them, a square graver, the work horse which does 90% of my engraving, a chisel or flat engraver used for cutting the diamonds and half diamonds in the nick and dot type boarder and a round bottom engraver.  I bought the smallest die sinkers chisels Brownell's offered and ground them to shape.  My square engrave is getting shorter by the year due to as I stated earlier, it is my work horse.  I plan on forging out my next set of engravers from some spring steel.  No particular reason why I want to make my own except I can.  I think I have wanted to make my own since I took Wallace Gussler's engraving class at Western Kentucky and seen that he forged out his own.  They had a certain charm about them.

I made some flats from O-1. It works pretty well for this.

Dan

[Kentucky Jeff]

Buy yourself three or four square 1/8" gravers.  The high carbon Mueller gravers are fine.  You'll also need a couple of handles like the mushroom head wood handles.  Sharpen one graver per any number of sources and use it either plain with a small hammer or fashion a small metal handle and epoxy the graver into the handle.   Again--chase this with a hammer.  This will be used to cut the vast majority of your work.  You'll also need to leave one graver like it is and just sharpen the face and the other needs to be re-ground to about a 50 degree angle  IOW if the standard square is 90 degrees per side grind the two bottom facing sides so they are about 50-55 degrees and leave the face about 45 degrees.  Glue this in one of the push handles and you will use this to cut the small triangles in something like a nick and dot border or to cut ridges in leaves.  This is a push graver.  The other graver can be glued in the handle as is and perhaps re-face the front a bit to sharpen it but don't hone a bottoming angle on it.  This graver is a push graver you will use it to make very fine shading lines.  Your push gravers are always pushed into a deeper cut line. 

A couple of small engraving hammers is helpful.  The proper way to hold them however is not like a traditional hammer.  You actually grasp the head.  The handle merely serves as a counterweight. 

[Dave B]

Here are a couple of study pieces I have picked up that have interesting engraving on them. They are both done using a square graver I believe.

[Acer Saccharum]

Dave B, thanks for the pics. That's real engraving for a rifle, by golly. Good stuff.

For hammer driven gravers, I like to make the cutting end from a HSS tool blank, set in a round 3/8 aluminum handle, about 6" total length.

For hand push, I like the wide palm handles,with the handle seated in my palm the cutting point should extend just beyond my fingertips. too long of a point, and you lack control.

Connie Durian is demonstrating the proper hold for a hand graver.


This is why the handles have that funny undercut on them. I never knew this until Connie showed me.

[Dphariss]

Buy yourself three or four square 1/8" gravers.  The high carbon Mueller gravers are fine.  You'll also need a couple of handles like the mushroom head wood handles.  Sharpen one graver per any number of sources and use it either plain with a small hammer or fashion a small metal handle and epoxy the graver into the handle.   Again--chase this with a hammer.  This will be used to cut the vast majority of your work.  You'll also need to leave one graver like it is and just sharpen the face and the other needs to be re-ground to about a 50 degree angle  IOW if the standard square is 90 degrees per side grind the two bottom facing sides so they are about 50-55 degrees and leave the face about 45 degrees.  Glue this in one of the push handles and you will use this to cut the small triangles in something like a nick and dot border or to cut ridges in leaves.  This is a push graver.  The other graver can be glued in the handle as is and perhaps re-face the front a bit to sharpen it but don't hone a bottoming angle on it.  This graver is a push graver you will use it to make very fine shading lines.  Your push gravers are always pushed into a deeper cut line. 

A couple of small engraving hammers is helpful.  The proper way to hold them however is not like a traditional hammer.  You actually grasp the head.  The handle merely serves as a counterweight. 

Everyone figures out their own process for just about everything.
But I have never run across the holding the hammer by the head before.

Dan

[Dave B]

I was shown a technique by a master engraver that studied over in Italy where they teach them to use the hammer held in the hand mostly as normal but the heads axis is at 90 degrees to the palm of the hand. The wrist rotating like your twisting a french door lever thats vertical. This is the way the tool is driven verses the traditional rocking of the wrist in alignment with the axis of the forearm as when driving nails.
They start you training with a hammer that has a head only about an inch long and .50 in dia.  He says that if you can consistanly hit the chisel with that you are ready to move up to the larger faced hammer. I met him that first year I joined the engravers guild to attend the Reno FEGA enravers guild show. He was the engraver on staff at the Cody firearms Museum at that time or something to that effect.

[JTR]

I gave up on push gravers and hammers a long time ago, and bought a Gravermiester.
While the machine alone won’t make you a good engraver, it certainly speeds up the process. If you have the eye/hand coordination to use a hammer and chisel, you’ll easily master the eye/hand/ foot coordination required for the Gravermeister.
With a little practice you’ll have a lot less of those ‘ooops’ moments, which will help you to gain confidence.
I honestly don’t do enough engraving to warrant the cost, but I had the $$$ at the time, and still enjoy using it. Good condition used ones are still 500/600 bucks, so need vs use is still a consideration.
John

[Ohioan]

I was looking at die sinkers chisels at falcontool.com http://www.falcontool.com/Falcon_Section10.pdf  and they have "standard grade" and High Speed Steel or "HSS".

When looking for a graver, which would be better? 

I would think the standard grade would be alright since most of the engraving we do is on mainly brass, silver, and mild steel.

Or am I wrong?

[Ohioan]

And the sizes are listed as numbers, does anyone know of a reference as to what each number means?

[Dale Halterman]

It seems there are also several different weights of hammers available. Can someone give some guidance on what the different uses are, and which is best to start with?

Dale H

[Ohioan]

Well, the hammers are explained in The Gunsmith of Greenville County by Peter Alexander. 
Mr. Alexander states that he was using a larger hammer (I have one, bought through ToTW)  Then he met Mike Lea who was using and selling a small hammer that weight 3 or 4 oz.  (I saw them at the Eastern, they are SMALL)

I forget all the details about it. But bassically you have to use more, lighter strokes.  Giving you more control of the graver.

[Acer Saccharum]

I like the HSS chisels. Less prone to chipping the edge off. Much tougher and durable than high carbon.

my favorite shape for hammer work is the onglotte, for I can cut lines with it, or lay it over on its side for making a wider line, especially around a turn.

The square graver is for line work, used much the same as the onglotte.

A flat is primarily for wriggle engraved borders. but this is driven by hand, not by hammer.

If you are primarily going to be doing PA longrifle, New England style engraving, the tools above will do it all. That's it. Two to three tools.

[Tim Crosby]

Here's what a very few of the many styles look like.

 Am I missing something here? I do not see any pics.

Tim C.

[Dave B]

Tim, If you are refering to the ones Tom talks about. They are just above that post on the first page They look something like this.

[Paddlefoot]

You can go to GRS.com and find a nice set of chasing hammers for $60. pretty much pre polished and all. Good books and other info there too.

[Tim Crosby]

Tim, If you are refering to the ones Tom talks about. They are just above that post on the first page They look something like this.

 Thanks I saw them. I thought he was posting pics of the tools themselves.

Tim C.