hawken barrels

[doulos]

Are straight non tapered hawken barrels period correct?  Or were they all tapered?

[Dphariss]

Are straight non tapered hawken barrels period correct?  Or were they all tapered?

There was a lot of variation and it may be period specific.
I was looking a the "Petersen" J&S 1/2 stock and it sure looked like it has as slight swamp. But there was a sheet of plastic between me and the rifle.
I have read that some late S Hawkens had straight barrels. But would have to dig through the books to be sure. Someone here has it off the top of their head. I have to look things up in many cases.
If I were making one I would use a tapered barrel at least for a J&S style rifle and likely the S Hawken as well. The late period  "Bridger Hawken" has a tapered barrel.

Dan

[Longknife]

A common myth is that all Hawken barrels were tapered. That is just not true. I just mic'd an original S. Hawken barrel and it was one inch, straight.  The earlier ones were tapered, the later ones , say after 1849 when Jake died could be either.  If I were building a J & S Hawken I would definately go for a tapered one and if building an S. Hawken either one could be used but a tapered one would sure make it balance better... You need to get Bairds book ....Ed

[halfcocked]

The Museum of the Fur Trade in Nebraska has a very nice early Hawken with a swamped barrel.

[Mtn Meek]

None of the commercially available swamped barrels match the swamp found on Hawken rifles if the Sublette-Beale Hawken is typical.  Its barrel "is slightly 'swamped', measuring 1.119” between the side flats at the percussion snail, decreasing forward to 1.022” midway between the mid- and forward ramrod pipes, then increasing to 1.047” at the muzzle."  Unless you have a custom barrel made, don't see why you would want to consider using a swamp barrel on a Hawken rifle.  It would not be any more HC/PC than a straight barrel.  If you want a 1-1/8" breech, go with a straight taper barrel.  Otherwise, I would recommend a straight 1' barrel. 

Dan is probably right about the "Bridger Hawken" having a tapered barrel, but GRRW made their Bridger Commemorative Hawken with a straight 1-1/8" barrel, and they had the original in their shop for some time to copy it.  They didn't get the scroll on the trigger guard right, so maybe they didn't get the barrel right either.  A 1-1/8" straight barrel on a Hawken makes it weigh 12 lbs or more.  A 1" straight barrel would make a 9.5 lbs to 10.5 lbs rifle, depending on barrel length, hollow vs solid rib, and cast vs sheet iron nosecap.   The heavier rifle would be good for bench shooting and stand hunting while the lighter rifle would be handier if you are lugging it up and down mountains or any sizable hills.

[JoeG]

Dan Knows what he is talking about
The  Bridger Hawken does have a tapered barrel
I'm lucky enough to have handled it when it was at GRRW

[Bob Roller]

That swamped barrel on a Hawken could also be a recycled barrel from a much earlier gun.
As Tom Dawson and Art Ressel said.just about anything was "grist for the mill".

Bob Roller

[Chuck Burrows]

According to Don Stith and Jerry Gnemi, two of the most knowledgeable Hawken students/collectors the majority of existing Hawkens have tapered barrels with about 10% being straight or swamped. Both men have handled far more originals than any one else still alive.

As I am sure I have posted here before, Hawken barrels are mostly tapers with straights and swamps being the rarities.
Don Stith. Mine is 1.040 taper to .970 and 37" , and 52 cal. Full stocks tend to be smaller barrels with less taper than the half stocks. Personally, I would not go larger than 1 1/16 at breech. With a flint tang I would go 38" long

The very fancy silver mounted 1836 Atcheson/Atchison Hawken on loan to the BBHC for instance has a swamped barrel with the following measurements:
1) 37" long
2) 54 caliber with 7 grooves 1/48" twist
3) 1.125" breech (note this is larger than Don recommended but), midpoint swamp 15/16", muzzle 1"

The Peterson Rifle, which is very similar in stock shape to the Atcheson and shares the same type of shotgun lock does have a slight swamp and may have been cut down (at the breech?) from a longer full-stock (note the extra long fore end and the placement of the wedges - more like a full stock.) This rifles always reminds of this period statement:

Well Don some rifles were re-stocked in the west and can be documented..
"Many years before, a trapper emplyed by the American Fur Company had taken it on a trapping expedition in the Blackfoot country. The Indians killed him and took his gun, Years after, Messrs. Bent, St Vrain, and Company sent an expedetion to that nation on a trapping and trading trip, and traded for the old rifle. At the fort it was re-stocked (full-length), and altered from flint lock to to percussion, and kept at the fort for a target rifle for several years. In 1846 I had it newly grooved (rifled), half stocked, and added a new lock and breech pin (all done by J & S Hawken, of St. Louis, and so marked), and have carried it in all my travels in the trade except on my last trip...(It was) my old and trusty friend, companion, and bedfellow, who never went back on me - "Old Blackfoot" - the name it was known by at the fort and which I have always retained."
Josiah Webb, Adventures in the Santa Fe Trade 1844-47

note: the fort is Bent's Fort in East Central Colorado. Established in the mid-1830's. The fort inlcuded such "conveniences" as a full fledged blacksmith/gun smith shop, a billiards room, and ice house.

The Kennett Hawken from the early 1850's, is also swamped mid-way not towards the muzzle.

Barrel lengths on originals run from short 32-34" on up to 42" on a few early full stocks with a good average being 36-39" long. As for current swamped barrels being incorrect for a Hawken I respectfully disagree - there are just too many variations in the originals to say the new ones would be totally incorrect - while most were less swamped then currently there are some models that come close. Unless that is you are making a bench copy of a particular rifle then yes a custom is the way to go.

IMO - for appropriate modern standard swamps - especially with a bit of adjustment
1) The 42" Rice southern classic - in .50 Caliber
2) The C weight 42" York/Golden Age - in .50 or .54 caliber
3) The C Weight 40 15/16" Reading - in .50 or .54 Caliber

They could all be "adjusted" to a lesser swamp by cutting 2-4" off the muzzle This would make them 38-40" long and would eliminate most of the higher flare, making them closer to the extant originals. But again there were lots of variation in not only the Hawken built barrels but also in other made barrels of the era, including those by Henry and several others that were widely used on western rifles of the era and we know that in some cases the Hawken shop bought pre-made barrels or at least blanks that they then rifled..

The Bridger is as noted, most definitely a swamped barrel not a straight as are the majority of Samuel Hawken stamped rifle (whether they were built by Sam, William, or Gemmer.) I handled it and measured it many moons ago and IIRC it is 1.125 breech and slightly over 1" muzzle 36" long - again IIRC the barrel sold by TOTW for the Bridger Hawken is correct.
GRRW did make some nice rifles, but most/many were not exacting copies - they often used what materials were available such as the coil spring locks used in some models. Again very good rifles (and some of the best barrels I ever used) but basing original Hawkens on the GRRW guns is IMO not a good idea. FWIW - I knew and was friends with several of the crew including Greg Roberts and Phil "Blue Jacket" Sanders - I almost went to work for them in 1974 building barrels, but got a better offer money wise anyway elsewhere.

[Mtn Meek]

Thanks, Chuck, for weighing in.  As always, your input is greatly appreciated.  I don't doubt that a number of existing Hawken rifles have a slight swamp in the barrel.  I also agree that there are many variations in the original barrels.  This would be expected in the day of when most items were hand crafted and/or obtained from many different suppliers.  The Rice swamp barrels you list might match the profile of some random Hawken barrel.  Who knows?

To me, the discussion is an academic one, though.  Unfortunately, there is insufficient detail information in the literature on the dimensions of Hawken barrels for the serious student or practical builder to duplicate.  I wish there was a reference on Hawken rifles that had detail measurements like the book For Trade and Treaty by Ryan R. Gale.

The two barrels documented in the literature, the Atchison Hawken described in Apri 1981 Muzzle Blasts and the Sublette-Beale Hawken described by Lee Burke in THE AMERICAN SOCIETY OF ARMS COLLECTORS bulletin, do not exactly match the profiles of the Rice barrels as they appear to have the minimum dimension toward the middle of the barrel on one and 1/4 or 1/3 of the way back from the muzzle on the other.  A shortened Reading or Southern Classic might approximate the profile lengthwise of the Sublette-Beale Hawken, but the degree of swamp would be more extreme.  A shortened 42" York/Golden Age would almost be a straight taper.

My comment about HC relates to having too much swamp or the swamp in the wrong section of the barrel doesn't add any more authenticity to me than having no swamp.  Obviously, this is just opinion, and we can respectively disagree.  I just don't see enough documented information and minimal swamp in commercially available barrels to transfer this academic discussion to a practical solution for the typical builder.

In you comment on the Bridger Hawken, did you mean "tapered" rather than "swamped"?

[Hungry Horse]

The Jed Smith Hawken in Santa Fe appears to be straight. The Clyman full stock in Napa Cal. also appears  to be straight. The only tapered Hawkens barrel I have personally observed was on a light sporting rifle owned by a friend, that shocked me, when I read the legend  on the barrel, that said S.Hawken, St. Louis. This gun is half stocked, in walnut, with a tapered barrel of about .40 cal. and brass fittings.

                         Hungry Horse

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

This Hawken rifle has a 35 1/2" barrel, tapering a few thousandths more than 1/32" over it's length.  It's a little over 1 1/16" at the plug.  My rifle based on this one, used a Rice 36" x 1 1/8" to 1" taper.  Not perfect, but still 12 pounds in .62 cal.

[Chuck Burrows]

The Jed Smith Hawken in Santa Fe appears to be straight.  Hungry Horse

I believe you mean the Carson Hawken? Unless something new has popped up the original Jed Smith rifle was lost when he was killed by the Comanches in 1831. Some of his gear including his two pistols were recovered but not his rifle.
The Carson rifles 31" barrel is most definitely tapered based on actual measurements - as D. Taylor noted many barrels were only lightly tapered so "appearance" alone is not a good way to "measure" Never seen the Clyman so can't offer anything.

And again based on actual measurements of most of the extant original Hawken "Mountain" Rifles (they also made local/squirrel guns and also a "California" rifle per an 1850's advert by William, Sam's son - would love to see one!) tapered barrels were by far the most common with some straight and some swamped.

and yep I meant tapered not swamped re: the Bridger

As for the being HC (a term along with PC that I despise since they are vague and often confusing especially to the uninitiated- IMO one should simply say documented) again if you want to make an exact aka bench copy then yes you will need to go custom, but based on the measurements of other barrels by other makers such as Henry as well as some of the other Hawkens not published, then one can adapt one of the commercial swamped offerings and still be within the dimensions used in period for barrels without paying out the bigger bucks for a custom.

[Hungry Horse]

Kit Carson's Hawken is in Taos. Jed Smith's is in the Palace of the Governors, in Santa Fe. Jed Smith's rifle is the gun Western Arms originally copied that is .53 cal.

                     Hungry Horse

[Chuck Burrows]

Not sure where you're info is coming from, but the 1970's prototype for the Western (later Allen) Arms Santa Fe Hawken was originally built by Ed Weber of Big Timber, Montana and was based on a J & S Hawken in the Montana Historical Society. The production guns were built by Uberti and according to Ed they made a few VERY few rifles based on that prototype and then as usual decided to change things. That info is straight from the horses mouth so to speak, and I remember well how excited all of us Hawken enthusiasts were back then that a REAL Hawken copy was to be produced. Alas it didn't happen and there were a lot of disappointed folks.
The production gun that went to market is a sort of loose interpretation of a late Sam Hawken (like the well known 1850's Carson Hawken) - a style not developed until long after Jed died in 1831. The butt plate, trigger guard, and slant breech used are all of the that later era.
The Santa Fe appellation is due to the fact that the distributor, Western/Allen Arms, was located there and as far as I know/remember Jed Smith's name got attached as a commemorative name only.
According to the Palace of the Governor's website they have a Carson collection, but not a Jed Smith one. I'll give them a call tomorrow and verify though.

[Don Getz]

General question..........How many original Hawken Rifles were built?   It seems that very few originals now exist...Don

[Hungry Horse]

Chuck;

  The info. on the Santa Fe Hawken replicas came from the brother of the gentleman that won this fine rifle at a rendezvous (now deceased). I assumed it was correct, and researched, maybe not so much, now that I hear a little more about these rifles. It would be interesting to get the straight scoop on this rifle. Thanks.

                                   Hungry Horse

[Longknife]

Don, Lets keep the question to "How many ST LOUIS Hawkens were built" That might be a more maneagable question. The real truth is , no one knows. Jake arrived in St Louis in 1807 but didn't open a gun shop until 1815. Jake worked alone in St Louis from 1815 til 1822 when Sam joined him. Then Jake died in 1849. Sam turns over the business to his son Wm S. Hawken in 1858. Sam went to Denver in 1859 and tried gold mining briefly. He opens a shop there in 1860. Wm. S. sells the shop in 1860 to Wm Watt and others. Sam return to St Louis in 1861 and Wm. S takes over the Denver shop. J.P. Gemmer buys a share of the Hawken shop in 1862 and operates it till 1915. It is thought that the Hawken stamp might have been used for some time after the shop was sold. Did I mention Christian Hoffman and Tristiam Campbell? They were employed at the Hawken shop for some time also....Then Art Ressel obtained the shop in 196? and made less than 300 guns before selling out to Greg Roberts and Claudette Greene who are producing St. Louis Hawkens rifle yet today....How many were produced in this 200 year time span is  a question that can not be answered......

[Roger B]

I was at the Palace in Santa Fe last Summer and saw a rifle which has most appearances of being a Hawken, but is not marked as best I can tell, and is not displayed as a Hawken.  I get the distinct impression that it was once a full stock, as it has a wooden under rib which has full stock ferrules let into it and is a pretty skillful alteration at that.  I think it had a cast nose cap, but can't remember, and they don't let you take photographs   I never saw a Hawken attributed to Jed Smith there.
Roger B.

[Don Stith]

Hansen was a far more serious researcher than Baird and not as interested in romanticising the Hawken mystique. He reports that Jake was  on the payroll at Harpers Ferry from 1808 to Feb. 1818. He was a surviving partner of Lakenan in 1825.
 Sam had his own shop prior to that. The listings in the American Fur Co accounts changed from Jacob to J&S in Aug 1825.

[heinz]

I would take Hansen with a grain of salt also.  I believe he went into that publication with the prupose of refuting the concept of the Hawken rifle as the mountainman's choice.
I have Hansen's book and was a friend of John Bairds.  Hansen has as many "opinions" based on his excellent research as does Baird. 

[Don Stith]

The Harpers Ferry records don't leave much to interpretation.  Neither do the St Louis City directory. At that time it would be difficult to commute from St Louis to Harpers Ferry.
 I knew both men.

[heinz]

I do not question either of those references.  It is also interesting to note that Sam Hawken was in Xenia, Ohio from about 1816 to 1821 and is listed there in the Federal Census of Manufacturers for 1820.