critiquing in general

[Acer Saccharum]

Jim's point about the best feedback coming from builders/students is something I hadn't really thought about. But, the few times that I manage to get my stuff in front of the pros, it is those guys (builders/students) that do seem to offer the best insight as to how to improve.

Great thread.

This way, it can be  'school specific', based on architecture, artistry, or whatever your specific question is. In the case of my Lehigh, I'd not quite 'nailed it' and a little timely advice really helped me to see what I didn't fully grasp about the stock architecture. I was able to make some improvements before it was too late...and learned a little more for the next one.

You also won't get the comments that mean well, but don't help you improve your art.

[Vomitus]

Some years ago I was showing around one of my latest guns at Conner Prairie and Don Getz was there. He let out a shriek and moan  and commented on how awful my gun was. What he did was point out an architectural flaw that I had been repeating for quite some time . With out his brutally honest critique I'd probably still be making the same mistake. Any less brutal and I probably would have ignored him. A shake up is usually needed to get somebody's attention.

  Acer,
  I like your approach for beginners but I like this approach better for the seasoned guy.Sometimes we get stuck in a rut and become comfortable there.It takes a "shriek and moan" to wake us up. I'm sure Don quite likes Mike.But I'll betcha he's screamed at John too,lol! Pretty nice having a fellow like that "take you under his wing".
If this is out of context,please read signature.

[Acer Saccharum]

Leather, your comment is not out of place at all. you point out that there should be different approaches for seasoned builders and beginners. totally valid.

[Mike Brooks]

Both Getz's have been close friends for at least 25 years or more, and I have always valued their opinions highly. You couldn't go to better people for a critique.
.Mark Silver can and will give you a pretty good slap up side the head if he knows you too....He's set me straight a time or two, and I very much appreciated it too.

[tallbear]

I think that even though it is very difficult to critique longrifles on line I believe it is very useful if the builder is willing to accept it .I have always been open to critique of my work both in person and on line.It has helped me greatly.While the " atta boys" collected on line are nice they don't help you to improve as much as constructive criticism.Several years ago I took an engraving class with Wallace Gusler.I took along my first rifle that I had just completed.Much to my suprise Wallace was very complimentary, although I later realized that he was being very kind and did not want to discourage me.I realized also that I really did'nt learn anything by Wallaces kindness.The next year I took my next rifle and again asked Wallace for his thoughts.Wallace again was very kind.I stopped him and asked him what he "Really" thought of it.Wallace asked me to return after class.Realizing that I was really interested in learning Wallace spent over an hour with me talking about what was both good and bad about my rifle.I learned more in that hour and a half than in all the previous years of study.I realized that having my work examined and critiqued by one of the best could speed up my learning curve greatly.We have some of those caliber builders here on the ALR.To not take advantage of this resource is plain foolish.Many times after my posting work here I've gotten feedback both on line and in personal messages which is been very helpful.Little details that I missed that can improve my work.Sometimes I don't agree with some critiques and that is fine also, I appreciate the spirit in which they were given.I've never felt as if they were mean spirited even though things can sometimes be easily misinterpreted because of the impersonal nature of the internet.My advise to all builders is to seek out critique of your work any way you can from the best builders you can whether on line or in person.You will be way ahead in the long run.

Mitch

[Mike Brooks]

I'd like to say that critiques here are always kind and well intentioned, probably overly so for people to learn what they need to know to make their work as good as it could be..
 I have come down hard on two people here. One over the term masterpiece when the gun was definately not but ballyhooed as the greatest gun ever built. Got tired of it and had to take the bull by the horns. The only other I have been critical with is TVM. I generally wouldn't care about what TVM is building as they fill a much needed niche, I just got tired of the uncalled for gushing praise for washed up on the beach,  dead fish guns with no life or soul. Had to take the bull by the horns again. Otherwise, the world is a happy place.... Happy, happy happy.

[Vomitus]

 

  The artist paints
 The poet translates
  The soul emulates


 I had yogurt today.Feeling kinda cultured.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Don't get too comfortable!!! 

[Robby]

Dang Leatherbelly!!! You are a gentleman AND a philosopher! Okay, that's my brutally honest critique for the day.
Robby

[Vomitus]

  ouch!

[T*O*F]

I had yogurt today.Feeling kinda cultured.

Kinda like fake pearls?

[Vomitus]

              A good sense
                of humor
            Is an Escape valve
             for the pressures
              Of everyday life, Dave

[hanshi]

              A good sense
                of humor
            Is an Escape valve
             for the pressures
              Of everyday life, Dave

But only HC/PC sense of humor. 

[Bob Roller]

A good sense of humor is the oil that keeps the engine of life running smoothly. All of the men in my family had a sense of humor that ran from the ribald to the preposterous and certainly none of this politically correct $#@*.

Bob Roller

[flintriflesmith]

When I was thinking about a signature line for my posts this came in a close second:
"I'm not sure I want popular opinion on my side---I've noticed those with the most opinions often have the fewest facts." 

There are times when this certainly applies to the topic under discussion here! I try not to express an opinion on new work unless I'm teaching a class or asked in person so I can actually handle the rifle and judge the builder's receptiveness to a critique.

Design or construction issues that are major enough to show up in photos on the web are usually the same rifle after rifle (lock panels too wide, forestocks too square, carving background diving under the elements, etc.) and pointing them out repeatedly seems a waste of everyone's time.
Gary

[David Rase]

Both Getz's have been close friends for at least 25 years or more, and I have always valued their opinions highly. You couldn't go to better people for a critique.
.Mark Silver can and will give you a pretty good slap up side the head if he knows you too....He's set me straight a time or two, and I very much appreciated it too.

You are right about that Mike.  About 15 years ago I showed an in the white Lancaster gun to Mark at Conner Prairie and ask for a critique.  Mark and I sat down in a side room and he started the critique process.  About 45 minutes later Mark had pointed out 18 things that he felt were wrong with my rifle.  He happened to have the Isaac Haines bench copy that he built for Joe Wood to show me examples of how some of the areas should look.  I left Conner Prairie that October and returned home to work over my rifle.  The following summer at an NMLRA gunsmithing seminar I showed Mark the finished rifle.  Once again, he looked over the rifle.  He told me that there were 3  things wrong with the gun.  Those 3 things just happened to be the 3 things that I could not fix that were pointed out during the original critique 8 months ago.  What credibility.  Here is a guy who looks at dozens of guns over the course of a year and 8 months later sees my gun again and points out the exact 3 items I could not fix.  I will never forget that experience.
Dave