Fat breeches

[Acer Saccharum]

Over in "Contemporary", there is a critique going on about a Mike Brooks rifle, which has early architecture, and a great look.
Here's the topic: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=22431.0

In this discussion, the 'humped breech' is discussed, and it inspired me to bring out some photos from various guns to further conversation on the subject. The 'humped breech' is an early feature which faded out in America in the late 18th Century. I can be found on some American pieces, and in plenty of European works. Most American Barrels don't have this kind of flare. Is this stylistic, or thought to be a factor of safety to keep the breech from blowing?
 
Below are some examples of 'humped breeches'.

British 'Coach Gun' breech. Barrel flares up at breech, tang is filed/shaped curving downward into wrist. Note straight English lock, similar to Chambers.


Jaeger from the Met, upward flare continues from barrel to tang, then the downward curve is all in the tang.


Same Met Jaeger, lockside. Note the straight lock, and huge 'hump' in the breech.


Another jaeger, note similar flare of barrel and tang, in conjunction with a 'banana' lock.


I thought you might like to see these pix, and the locks and architecture that goes along with these great flared barrels.

Do visit the link above, where Mike has offered his rifle over for critique. This is a great thread, interesting feedback, and a learning experience for all who participated.

[Mike Brooks]

I have always associated that hump with continental euro stuff. Gives a very earl look. My hump is a little different, I started mine right at the breech, but it still gives nearly the same effect. Seems that EK has something similar, but I can't access his site. Anybody have his site addy?

One word on the radical hump on my gun. This particular piece of wood was perfectly suited for this gun as the grain flow follows the profile perfectly. I would have never done this otherwise with a .69 rifled barrel.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

I am glad you mentioned that Mike. I wondered with that big bore if there was enough wood behind the breech to be safe....I could just see it chipping out the "hump".  The grain certainly would be critical here i would think.  Thanks!!

[Acer Saccharum]

That extreme breech 'hump' is a function of the barrel contour. If an American gun had a hump like that, it would most likely be a re-stocking of a European barrel.

[rich pierce]

Humped breeches were pretty common on early American fowling pieces.










The tulip rifle has a decent hump.  I think this is a feature that is rarely found on a rifle barrel post the F&I War.  Maybe rare post-1750.

[Acer Saccharum]

Wow, the Tulip Rifle has one heck of a barrel! Thanks for posting those.

Several of those guns have humped breeches, and gently tapered barrels. Most of the bend occurs in the tang.

[Elnathan]

I have always associated that hump with continental euro stuff. Gives a very earl look. My hump is a little different, I started mine right at the breech, but it still gives nearly the same effect. Seems that EK has something similar, but I can't access his site. Anybody have his site addy?

This one?
http://www.erickettenburg.com/Site/1750s_Rifle.html

[bob in the woods]

I recently purchased a Chamber's Officer's Fusil kit, and it looks to me like it has that 'hump'
1 1/4 inch breach on that barrel !

[Mike Brooks]

I have always associated that hump with continental euro stuff. Gives a very earl look. My hump is a little different, I started mine right at the breech, but it still gives nearly the same effect. Seems that EK has something similar, but I can't access his site. Anybody have his site addy?

This one?
http://www.erickettenburg.com/Site/1750s_Rifle.html

Yep, that's the one. Tremendous piece of work.

[Mike Brooks]

Wow, the Tulip Rifle has one heck of a barrel! Thanks for posting those.

Several of those guns have humped breeches, and gently tapered barrels. Most of the bend occurs in the tang.

The hump in my gun starts in the same place as the tulip gun....another one of my favs.

[Acer Saccharum]

The hump in my gun starts in the same place as the tulip gun....another one of my favs.

I stand corrected!

Great discussion and great guns, both old and contemporary, 'coming out of the closet'.

[Ron Scott]

I recently acquired a Vienna Rifle ca 1730, that has a breech dimension of 1.40 inches.  It is interesting to note that the barrel is a restocked Ottoman Barrel with all the silver inlay intact. So the this breech hump in not necessarily restricted to European and American Flintlocks.

[Acer Saccharum]

Ron, as I understand it, the Turkish barrels were prized for their superior metal. Several German stocked rifles in the MET sport Turkish barrels. Barrels that were captured after the Battle of Vienna.

[Mike Brooks]

Ron, as I understand it, the Turkish barrels were prized for their superior metal. Several German stocked rifles in the MET sport Turkish barrels. Barrels that were captured after the Battle of Vienna.

The Brits liked them too.

[Acer Saccharum]

Mike, I now question my assumptions that the humped breech was born out of barrel configuration. I believe that early on, especially in Europe, the humped stock architecture was certainly dictated by the barrel and lock, but in the cited American examples, there is no need for the hump, other than a 'cultural holdover', somewhat like vestigial organs and limbs, the little remains of legs on a snake.

That makes the humped breech all the more interesting to me.

[T*O*F]

And now for something completely different aka Monty Python:

It appears to me that that the tang is humped, not the breech, unless it has a hooked tang in which case it would be referred to as the standing breech.

Perhaps the hump is a device to allow for additional wood for raised carving around it, while allowing the stock and barrel to flow together better at their juncture.

[Stophel]

A taller breech allows for your two "flats" of the wood around the tang to be closer to the oblique flats of the barrel.   

I wouldn't mind having a rifle barrel with a 1 1/4" breech, with a pronounced taper for the first several inches.... 

[Acer Saccharum]

It appears to me that that the tang is humped, not the breech, ....

Dave, your perception is 100% right. The hump is in the tang, the flare is in the barrel. Some guns have 'wings' of wood on either side of the tang, maybe to act as sight alignment devices, or maybe it's just stylin'.

[Osprey]

Thank god, I feared this thread was about a PC dress code for the old guys at Dixons...

[Mike Brooks]

Well, you certainly couldn't call it mainstream in colonial America....

[Acer Saccharum]

No, it seems more regional appropriate: New England, NY. Hudson River, Mohawk Valley. Mix some Dutch, German, English and French together for an appropriate styling for this territory. Certainly, more fowlers than rifles seen in this area.

There were Palatinate Germans in the Mohawk and Hudson Valleys, but as I understand, they came with little more than the shirts on their backs. There could have been gunsmiths, and gun culture, but I have seen little 'Germanic' from the Palatine regions of NYS.

[Mike Brooks]

No, it seems more regional appropriate: New England, NY. Hudson River, Mohawk Valley. Mix some Dutch, German, English and French together for an appropriate styling for this territory. Certainly, more fowlers than rifles seen in this area.

There were Palatinate Germans in the Mohawk and Hudson Valleys, but as I understand, they came with little more than the shirts on their backs. There could have been gunsmiths, and gun culture, but I have seen little 'Germanic' from the Palatine regions of NYS.

The prevalent influence in that area is Dutch and French and little else. It isn't untill you get over to Long Island that the British influence becomes strong.

[T*O*F]

The prevalent influence in that area is Dutch

Maybe the Dutch patterned their guns after their burgomeisters......fat breeches and big butts.

[TMerkley]

My best guess is that it was mainly for the extra metal to withstand the proofing and subsequent firing after.  Also, it may have been done so that it could be refreshed and still have enough metal for the breech plug to have a collar to butt up against.  Just a guess. 

When I first saw the thread, the first thing that came to my mind is who is the Lard @$$!!    (Breeches, not Briches)
Not meant to offend anyone.