Antique ID help

[riverrat]

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I’m trying to help ID this old gal. Any help you can be will be appreciated. This fine old half stock belongs to the same friend who had the Bartlett a while back. She does not want to sell it particularly, her husband likes it. They would just like to know something, anything about it. Her father acquired it from some unknown person/place. He’s deceased now, so that is likely to forever remain a mystery. What I know about it is:
It had a tag on it that said “Original Made In Belgium” I assume her dad wrote and attached it.
It’s a half stock with a horn fore end tip. Its approximately a .36 caliber. Barrel is 30 inches and 7/8 inches across at the flats. Ornately engraved, even the screw heads are engraved. There appears to be a tang site attachment on the tang. The sights where abouts are unknown.
I’ve had the barrel out and there is not one single identifying mark of any type to be found. No proof marks, no makers name, no nothing. There is a brass insert on top of the barrel that looks to have been dovetailed in for a rear sight at one time. Looks like it was moved forward and the brass insert of plug was put in and inscribed with the initials “J C”. There are absolutely no other marks on it. The crown is odd to me in that it is severely recessed. There is an odd little half circle with a hole in it on the lock plate forward of the hammer, behind and below the nipple. Don’t recognize this. The hammer is engraved like a fish. I think that is not too un common. If there are any other pictures that you guys need to make a guess, I’ll have it in my safe for a few more days. In the meantime, anyone care to speculate?

[Curt J]

It does look European, but the lack of any proof marks suggests that it might have been made on this side of the Atlantic by a European-trained gunsmith.  It looks somewhat Germanic to me, but the influence could be from several other countries as well.  In any case, it is a very well made, superior quality rifle.  The engraving and style reminds me of a rifle I have that was made by G. BEUTTENMULLER, CHICAGO, ILL, even though it looks like it was made in the Black Forest by elves.  That little half circle with the hole is where a lever-type safety used to be. My Beuttenmuller rifle has one.

[nord]

A couple of points so far unmentioned...

The German Empire was formed later than this gun was made. Before that time there were no proofs required on what we now consider German guns. The distinctive cheekpiece and accompanying features tend to suggest Austria-Hungary. I have a feeling that this is where your gun was made.

The stock... I'd bet European walnut. If it really matters, then a small sample can be tested

[Hungry Horse]

The fixture on the tang may have been for a tang mount sight, but also could have been a mount for an early scope. Late 19th century target rifles often had long tube scopes.

                    Hungry Horse

[okieboy]

 Is that a recessed muzzle? If so, thats a feature that one doesn't see every day.

[riverrat]

Yes, the recess is approx .081 deepat the very edge of the recess and then it slants or tapers down ( concave) to .318 at the mouth of the bore. I guess it must be some sort of target crown.  The scope idea is a good one but I see no marks on the barrel where the forward end of the scope might have been mounted or attached.

[okieboy]

 If the fixture on the tang was for a tube sight, would the hole be rectangular?

[Hungry Horse]

Often the forward end of the scope mounted into a primitive scope ring that had a dove tailed base to fit the forward dove tail in the barrel. Some even had screw adjustments for windage, and elevation built into the base. Many held the scope in place with spring pressure, from coil springs in the ring. Scopes of the period were much more delicate than scopes today. Also, shooters had little experience with scopes, so they often failed, and were replaced with iron sights.
 I had the rare experience of finding a nice brass tube scope off of an early target rifle by Slotter and Co., and later finding the Slotter rifle it was taken off of, sadly without its original scope mounts. The scope was in tact. i suspect the owner just didn't like it.
 I have seen several scoped target rifles made just after the Civil War. Many of these rifles had a rebated muzzle to use a sleeve type bullet starter. Most had very little crown on the muzzle. Just enough to keep the sharp edge of the barrel from marring the bullet. This deep recessed muzzle is something new to me. I suspect the gun may have been a round ball gun, or used some other type of exotic bullet.

                   Hungry Horse

[Mike Brooks]

German. The fixture on the tang was for a peep sight.The front sight has likely been changed.

[Stophel]

As I understand it, It was a "diopter".  Basically it is the same thing as the shooters glasses with the black discs with the aperture in them.  Blinds out everything except the sight.  The normal open sights were used.

[westerner]

Nice rifle, but what a puzzle as to origin.    The cheek plate looks like rifles made in Munich.  The tang and lock look like rifles made in Dusseldorf.  The horn tip could be Austrian, German or Swiss.  The recessed muzzle was common in Austria Germany Switzerland and America. Daryl is right about the front sight being a replacement.
Could have had a windage and elevation adjustable diopter. Might have been a very simple lollipop sight.  Trigger profile looks German. Checkering and especially the borders look German.  The trigger guard looks German.

My guess is German.  Also think very unlikely it ever had a scope mounted to it.  If so it would be exceedingly rare unlike American rifles where BR shooting was common.  

Below is the correct style starter for your mystery rifle.  

Information about German, Swiss, Austrian, percussion rifles is scarce. Catalogs had not been invented yet and the two world wars destroyed and scattered information that might have been published about them.




     Joe.

[riverrat]

Thanks everyone for some great insights. I sure do wish it could talk. It appears to be a very solid, well made piece. I believe it would be a good shooter. Thanks again for all the input.