Thick muzzled repop smoothbores

[James Rogers]

Here are two Colerain "Griffin" barrels whose profile was copied from a Spanish form barrel on a London gun by Ben or Joe. I am not sure but I imagine the measurements for it's creation came thru the Rifle Shoppe. They are the same barrel and bore size but the one on the left has had the muzzle relieved as explained in period writings. I think it gives a  proper look to the muzzle.

[Acer Saccharum]

"Muzzle relieved'........maybe YOU know what you mean, but I don't.

Bored from the front, ie, belled on the inside, or turned on the outside to thin the wall?


I can't stand the thick walled fowler muzzles. Ruins the whole gun.

[James Rogers]

Sorry Tom,

The outside is left alone as it has a slight flare and is dimensioned to the original profile. The inside is opened for a ways into the muzzle pretty much following the outside flare so it is somewhat belled on the inside.
I have an old book on English guns that is hideous on circa dates but wonderfully records separate muzzle and bore measurements of those guns that survived without having their barrels hacked. Some guns were relieved in the breech as well.

[Acer Saccharum]

James, the bore is relieved for a certain distance down, then it is cylinder bore the rest of the way. a bit like a blunderbuss, in that it would be easier to load.
 
I would be concerned that if it were too great a relief that the bore would be so big that the wads would tip and turn, spilling shot down the tube at the worst possible moment.

Or size your wads up a bit to fit the enlarged bore, which then compress nicely upon pushing down the tube.

I'm not enuff of a shooter of smoothies, so I'm just talking out loud.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

pour powder in, push a wad/card down on top of it pour shot in, push a card down on top of it....the bell shouldn't have any impact.
Now for a round ball, you have the same considerations as when coning the muzzle of a rifle I would think..... sure does look better though!!! 

I am finishing up an English stalking rifle with a Griffin barrel profile the same as the fowler barrel except this isa .r8 caliber rifle..... I guess I should cone the muzzle eh?? 

[James Rogers]

 

They are only in an inch or two. They work good.

[Daryl]

By the mid 1800's many makers and shooters thought a bore needed to be tight in the middle of the barrel, then relieved towards the muzzle and towards the breech. How tight they were, depended on whether ball was also desired to be shot, with less constriction in barrels for both shot and ball. The constriction also depended on the barrel's overall length.

By the 1820's, the US military found that the thicker the barrels, the more accurately they would shoot round balls, thus by 1842, the barrel was quite heavy on the issue Musket, the last of the smoothbores.

Today, the 20 bores, or .62 cal smoothbored barrels can be purchased both ways, either thick walled or thin depending on the maker.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

But Daryl. We are discussing mid 18th Century barrels made in Europe. Colerain has a relatively thick .62 smoothy and a thin barreled one by Long  Hammock. Not sure about Getz or Rice.

Have any info on mid 18th century barrels??

[James Rogers]

Daryl in referring to thinner barrels being available are you are you talking about makers using the same OD for two bore sizes?
The right muzzle in the picture shows the larger bore size.

[Roger Fisher]

If used mainly as a r ball shooter, and although they may look clunky from the front end the heavier the piece (to a point) the better they hang and shoot.  A bit like chunky women don't knock 'em til you try 'em!

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Roger... you got my attention!!

[Daryl]

Daryl in referring to thinner barrels being available are you are you talking about makers using the same OD for two bore sizes?
The right muzzle in the picture shows the larger bore size.

No James - they are smaller diameter for the thin ones and larger diameter for the thick-walled tubes. Looks ot me the right muzzle is smaller in diameter - if the text is correct, that is the case, as the left muzzle has been relieved.

The first part of my post referred to the relieving as noted in some texts, one of which was Forsyth's mid 1800's book and another Greener's "The Gun etc, etc". They state they were relieved gradually, breeches and muzzles - both to the centre of the bore where it was tighter, not only at the muzzle for a short space.

[Artificer]

 

They are only in an inch or two. They work good.

Is this the same as what was referred to as "jug" choking in the mid late 19th century?

Gus

[SuperCracker]

Daryl

I know that Colerain uses the same outside dimensions for their 20 and 16 barrels. I am building a late flint shotgun that I originally bought a 20ga Griffin for but once I got to handle it I decided it was too heavy for a wingshooting gun so I ordered a 16. They are identical on the outside. The 16 is still a bit on the thick side I think and I plan to thin the wall a bit towards the muzzle.

[James Rogers]

Sorry Daryl,

I meant that both barrels are examples of the larger bore offering from a barrel type that uses the same OD for these 16 bores as well as  offering it in 20. It's way thick in 16.
These pictured are both the same bore size and the same OD at the muzzle. The only difference is that the left one has been relieved with a cone effect just inside the bore only an inch and a half or so before it goes to cylinder.

I believe I have seen 19th century images of the bore type you are talking about and that one IIRC has a gradual taper inside going both ways for a longer distance.

The majority of the 18th century fowling barrels I have seen first hand or have read about in period (18th c.) material were done for a small distance just inside the muzzle.

[James Rogers]

 

They are only in an inch or two. They work good.

Is this the same as what was referred to as "jug" choking in the mpid late 19th century?

Gus

Hi Gus,
No this is not a jug choke at all. It was an early attempt at controlling the pattern of the shot though.
A jug is relieved BEHIND the muzzle, increasing in size from the bore diameter and then going back to bore size prior to exiting. That does create a choke effect and I have no knowledge of that coming on til much later.

[Daryl]

I'm sorry - I misunderstood.

artificer - Jug choking is an enlarged area back behind the muzzle, not at the muzzle. The mouth of a jug, or bottle, ie: muzzle is smaller than the enlargement. With a jug choke, the enlargement is usually 1 1/2" to 3" long depending on who made it. Jug choking is a method of pattern control that c ame about for cylinder bores after modern-type choking was understood.  It was a remedy for barrels already bored through full length cylindrically.

The enlarged muzzle described is akin to a coned muzzle in a rifle's bore.