frizzen bounce back?

[Dphariss]

If the frizzen spring is weak and the stop compresses it much  it will greatly increase rebound.
All bearing parts need to be hard. Rollers will flat spot otherwise.
Dan

[LH]

I guess my question is  "is 316ss hard enough?  I really dont know the hardness of 316 ss,  but the frizzen toe is already showing some wear after only a couple of hundred cycles, so I figured that anything harder than that would be ok.  Just from working 316 I "think"  its harder than the frizzen.  I dont have a piece of O1 roundstock laying around,  so maybe I should anneal a drill bit and re-harden it after I make a wheel?   If I do that,  should I draw it back or can the wheel be too hard?  Just trying to get this right on the first try.

[Bob Roller]

The shank of a drill bit is seldom too hard to be drilled so annealing won't be needed. I turned a
15/64ths shank to .187 so I could collet it and used an ordinary High speed lathe tool to do it.
These shanks are not dead soft and should make a decent roller for a frizzen or spring.

Bob Roller

[Dphariss]

I guess my question is  "is 316ss hard enough?  I really dont know the hardness of 316 ss,  but the frizzen toe is already showing some wear after only a couple of hundred cycles, so I figured that anything harder than that would be ok.  Just from working 316 I "think"  its harder than the frizzen.  I dont have a piece of O1 roundstock laying around,  so maybe I should anneal a drill bit and re-harden it after I make a wheel?   If I do that,  should I draw it back or can the wheel be too hard?  Just trying to get this right on the first try.

Has to be a steel that can be hardened and tempered or well casehardened mild steel.
Stainless steel is greatly overrated for many things.

Dan

[LH]

Ok,  thanks guys,  I'll just use a drill bit then.  I just had some 316 and thought I'd use it if it would work but a drill bit wont be that much harder to cut off and use.   

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I used drill rod, and hardened and tempered it to straw/brown.  The axle is a piece of 1/16" music wire.  I ground the roller down to .297" with it pinned in the frizzen spring, just allowing it to rotate a little against the belt grinder....a light touch.

[LH]

Well,   I think my lock is possessed of the devil.       I found a piece of 01 this morning that I didnt know I had and turned it to .300 and drilled it and hardened it and got it in without busting anything.  I had to grind mine down to .280 before it would clear the bolster though.  For about 20 or 30 cycles it worked fine,  then back to bouncing back.   At that point I figured the frizzen spring was too light, so I took the torch to it and gave the roller end an "upturn" to tighten it up.  I think I went too far,  but I havent been able to get it to bounce back in about 50 cycles now.  I just about need a cheater bar to close it though.  Maybe tomorrow I'll put the 1/4" wheel back and see if that makes it slightly easier to close.  It flips open ok though, so I'll count that as making progress.  I think where I want to be is about half way between where it was this morning and where it is now in terms of frizzen spring tension.  The fun is in the journey I guess   Maybe when I get through I'll have a feel for doctoring on one of these frizzen springs. 

[LH]

I noticed yesteday that my roller is wearing the toe of the frizzen pretty fast.  The roller wheel only makes contact on one side of the toe and I havent measured it,  but there is an obvious step there now after approximately 500 cycles that I'd guess is about .01".   Thinking I could wrap the upper part of the frizzen with a wet rag and just harden the toe.  If it dont break, and I dont think it will, maybe the wheel will be less likely to wear since it has the friction point on the axle.   I'm still getting some bounce back btw,  every time I change the rock,  it acts like a different lock.  I can usually stop it by moving the rock out closer to the frizzen, but I run out of rock pretty fast using 3/4x3/4 flints. I'm wondering if I can stabilize things a bit by stopping the wear on the toe?  what yall think? 

[LH]

Shot for several hours this afternoon and as during my last session,  the frizzen started bouncing back when the flint got short (about three nappings) so today I tried turning it over(bevel down) and I shot it 25 or 30 more times that way without a bounceback and only napped it once.    Maybe I'll learn how to operate a flintlock someday.

[LH]

Two days ago I bent the cock down so that its aimed more into the middle of the pan instead of at the frizzen hinge when its all the way down.  I've shot it about 50 or 60 times on both days, and not one bounceback and good fast ignition with little wear on the rock.  At least 100shots on that rock and knapped it about three times.  The rock hits the frizzen about half way down and throws a BIG shower of sparks when its sharp.  We'll see what happens when I change rocks. 

[LH]

Well,  for anyone interested,  now that six months and a couple of thousand shots have gone by with this lock,  I've gotten to the point where I can operate it with reasonable reliability.  The larger roller didnt seem to do as much as bending the frizzen stop upwards so that the frizzen opens further.  Bending the cock down a smidgen seemed to make more difference than anything,  but at that point it might have just been a combination of things that all collectively changed the geometry a little.  Shooting with the rock mounted bevel down will allow long flint life and is reliable, but I think it might be a tad slower.  Might just be my imagination though because the flint hits higher on the frizzen that way.  Still,  when I'm shooting seriously,  I mount the rock bevel up and when they get short, I put em back in my box and use them later for practice mounted bevel down.  That satisfies the tightwad in me if nothing else.   

[AsMs]

LH,

I put a reply for the same question in the shooting section about a week ago.  My frizzen on my new rifle was bouncing back and shattering the flints.  By extending the leather that holds the flint to the leading edge of the flint acts as a cushion and the frizzen comes down on the leather.  Have not broken a flint since.  Does not effect the spark.  Nothing that would void the warrenty of the lock either.  Next time try this first.


AsMs

[LH]

Thats a good idea and I'll get around to using it at some point I imagine.  I enjoy fiddling with these things anyway and dont mind voiding my warranty though.  When I buy a lock,  I figure if all the parts are there and will function without breaking,  its mine to do with what I please.  I make adjustments to some locks on an ongoing basis just out of curiousity too.  I think alot of the fun of it for me is asking myself,  "why is it doing that?"  when it does something strange.  At one point I put a piece of shrink tubing on the frizzen toe and that would cushion it and prevent bounceback for about 50 shots til it wore through,  but I only did that so I could shoot the gun in a two day shoot.  I guess I'm just hammer headed, but I'll occassionally get to the point where I'll either fix something of completely destroy it trying. Chambers makes some good stuff that cannot be had anywhere else, and I truly appreciate their contribution to the game,  but I dont prevail on him to fix anything for me that I can do myself, and I'm arrogant enough to think I can improve most of the toys I own.  I like your idea for a quick fix though.   

[Vomitus]

  I've been following this thread with interest as my frizzen does a similar rebound.

[Artificer]

I, too, have been following this thread with interest.  I would really like to know more about shaping the toe for the best resistance of the frizzen to the cock and the correct kick over point. 
Gus

[bgf]

One thing to take into account with the Chambers Late Ketland is that it is not really set up to use the 3/4" flint, but works better with the smaller 5/8" flint.  It used to (maybe still does) say that on the Chambers website.  My Late Ketland came with a small flint wrapped with leather, and it functions flawlessly (in testing) with that setup, although it is not too pleasing to the eye with the flint bevel up ( some of you know I'm MOSTLY joking).

I had as similar situation with an L&R Durs Egg -- where the flint would break if it was going to within 1 or two strikes.  In that case I found installing the flint farther away from the frizzen (and bevel down as the good Lord intended) at half cock cured 99% of the problems with rebound.  I know that that lock also works fine with 5/8" flints, and it is a hair bigger than the Late Ketland.  The leather over the flint doesn't hurt anything either.

I believe the rebound is worst when the flint hits the frizzen too high and at an angle too near perpendicular to it, that gives it maximum force and leverage to knock frizzen back forcefully rather than scraping along it and pushing it over gently as a side-effect more or less. 

[Acer Saccharum]

I have found bevel up works best in my late ket. Hitting farther down on the frizz tends to create sparks closer to the pan, hence, better placed sparks to start the conflagration. And no bounce back.

[Acer Saccharum]

....well, no humanly perceptible bounce back, no flint smashing bounce back.  As seen in Larry Pletcher's high speed videos, ALL frizzens bounce to some degree.

[bgf]

I have found bevel up works best in my late ket. Hitting farther down on the frizz tends to create sparks closer to the pan, hence, better placed sparks to start the conflagration. And no bounce back.

Acer,
Yes, you must use flint bevel up in Late Ketland -- looks funny but it works.  Bevel down works great if the geometry is set up for it, as Pletcher's testing on the Durs Egg shows.  I suspect the large siler genetics in the Late Ketland make it prefer bevel up !

I would say you are right (and never would argue with Pletcher's videos): rebound is unavoidable, but the less the initial impulse, the quicker it should be damped and the less damage it should cause.  I find myself wanting to draw a vector diagram and write some equations, but most of what I remember from physics (mechanics anyway) has to do with female classmates (though not to the extent of chemistry...but that is another story).

[Acer Saccharum]

The higher up the frizzen is hit, (as in bevel down), more inclined to smack the frizzen open, the more square to the steel the flint is, and the less shearing action occurs.

Hitting frizzen lower down (bevel up) causes a more shearing action, with the flint contacting the frizzen at a gentler sweep angle, rather than a straight on impact.

[LH]

Acer,  thats why I turn my flints upside down  (bevel down) after they get short.  Then they'll hit at about the same place as a longer flint mounted right side up will.       The actual angle is closer to 90*, but not enough to make much difference in the way it sparks.