Graf's Powder Sale

[dannylj]

I see Graf's has a sale going on for their Graf's black powder. $11.99 a lb. - anyone use this regularly?  Danny

[451whitworth]

I was in Mexico, MO on Wed. and picked up 5# of Graf's ($11.99) and 5# of Schuetzen ($12.99). I bought 2Fg & 3Fg in both brands. I understand it's the same German made Wano powder. I plan on comparing both with the Goex i already have.

[Roger Fisher]

I was in Mexico, MO on Wed. and picked up 5# of Graf's ($11.99) and 5# of Schuetzen ($12.99). I bought 2Fg & 3Fg in both brands. I understand it's the same German made Wano powder. I plan on comparing both with the Goex i already have.

I'd wager (at least $.50) that you will find the Schuetzen and Graf's will shoot more than a frog hair low compared with the Goex    That at least is what happened with my old rifle .

[LH]

I got the same results as Roger,   weaker and dirtier than Goex. 

[heelerau]

I have about 30 odd pounds of Goex, FFg and little FFFg, I bought this 30 years ago. I find it works well and is pretty clean. Is Goex different nowadays? Where is it made?

Cheers from down under

Gordon

[bgf]

I had some Graf's 3F that shot same trajectory as Goex 3F, if not a little better, then I have some more recent that seems to lose velocity w/ref. to Goex, esp. in heat and/or humidity.  It is cleaner than Goex in my experience in terms of amount of fouling, but the fouling (at least of the current batch) reacts more to hot, humid weather and makes a mess quicker.

My .50 seems to like 2F better after a couple thousand shots, and it takes a good chaw out of the can every shot, so I've been tempted to try the Graf's 2F on sale, but I'm not sure it is good economy if I have to bump charge up.

Now, I know I am at risk of sounding silly, but it is it possible for powder to react that noticeably to weather?  Is the Graf's maybe a good deal for spring and fall shooting where conditions are more average or is it a change in lots that is causing the problem?  I know the mad monk's experiments showed Graf's and Goex were neck and neck in terms of velocity (thus trajectory), and some of my experience backs that up, but some contradicts it.

[Gene Carrell]

I would  expect that temperature would have some effect  on black powder, just as it does on smokeless. I can tell you from experience that humidity and moisture level  in the powder  will have a dramatic effect on long range, even at 500yd mid-range targets.We have seen  two MOA or more shot-to-shot variation  with inconsistant  moisture content in the powder.

[Leatherbark]

I recently ran out of Goex 3 f. I had a few pounds of Grafs 3f that my GM .54 didnt like. All of a sudden my  long range grouping got a whole lot better with the Grafs in my  Tip Curtis 50 with Colerain bbl. Up close cannot tell that much of a difference.

I'll swear I've shot some unbelievable groups at 150 yards with the Grafs I never did with the Goex. Probably just my gun likes it better. 70 grains of Grafs chronographed 1760 fps. 70 gr of Goex chronographed 1730 fps. I've had the Grafs for 5 or 6 years. DIdnt group for diddly in my GM .54 though. I havent given up of GOex for sure.

Bob

[hanshi]

I ordered a case of Jacks Battle Powder a few weeks back for, IIRC, $11.60lb.  Still testing but so far it shoots as well as anything I've used.  It fouls about like Goex but cleans up much more quickly and easily.  Chronographing comes next but I like JBP.

[dagner]

 we were out at range last year  and guys had a conograph set up  we put same load  of 2ff down same gun with swiss - goex select - goex  and schutzen   was using my big 45 capl cunck gun  and 90 grain load.  as listed above how they came in by velocity.  if memory serves me right their was well over 200 fps difference. velocity is not everything though  some of those darn muzzle loaders plain show a real  group preference to the powder they like   
dag

[Daryl]

As with loading modern firearms, when you change any component, you most often have to re-develope the load.

Using the same loading specs as before can often generate quite negative results.

Some modern BR shooters even change the load depending on the atmospheric conditions.  I've heard the same for BP long range bullet shooters, but have not witnessed this.

[451whitworth]

we were out at range last year  and guys had a conograph set up  we put same load  of 2ff down same gun with swiss - goex select - goex  and schutzen   was using my big 45 capl cunck gun  and 90 grain load.  as listed above how they came in by velocity.  if memory serves me right their was well over 200 fps difference. velocity is not everything though  some of those darn muzzle loaders plain show a real  group preference to the powder they like   
dag

i believe the velocity difference. my chrony shows a 200fps difference between 180gr Swiss 2Fg and 180gr. Goex 2Fg in my .69 Sporting rifle, 1670 fps vs. 1465 fps. The difference seems much more pronounced in when shooting PRB. In my PH Volunteer .451  90gr of Swiss only gets 60-70fps more than 90gr of Goex.

[451whitworth]

also an equal load of 110gr Schuetzen and Goex were tried in a .54 Renegade this past weekend with a Lee Minie modified with a turned down base plug to create a thicker skirt. 20 fps was about all the difference.

[Daryl]

Interesting 415, my own.69 produced 1,550fps from 165gr. GOEX in 1986 using a .682" pure lead ball of 482gr., and is slightly higher that that today, judging by the point of impact in comparrison. I'll have to re-speed test to make sure, but it appears that today, with what I assume if today's powder, 140gr. 2f GOEX produces similar speeds due to identical points of impact as the old 165gr. load produced. The sights have not been moved in over 26 years - no need. I merely had to reduce the load, slightly to shoot to the sights.

[northmn]

I use Grafs 3f in my 25 squirrel rifle because it burns cleaner.  Over a chronograph the 22 grains or so I shoot gets about 100fps less than the GOEX.  Its still plenty wicked for small game.  Never really bothered to weigh to see if the setting on the measure throws the same wieght for each powder.  Cleaner burning in a 25 means a lot.

DP

[Daryl]

Maybe I shouldn't get a .25 then, but will stay with my .32.  Like my other rifles and smoothbore, it doesm't seem to foul at all. At least there is nothing noticable for an 80 shot day.

[northmn]

One of the things about the 25 is that those of use that have them seem to have to shoot a hefty charge for powder for the ball weight.  The ball weighs in at 23-24 grains and they do not seem to shoot unless you drive it with a hefty charge of over 20 grains.  3f is probably pretty coarse in a 25 also.  But 4f wants to self prime on loading which can also cause some problems.  I also use a hunting lube and have not tried the TOW mink oil yet as I have other grease/wax lubes available.  Also for me I really do not shoot it at a lot of paper but at game and do not consider the level of fouling I get to be much of a problem.  I have no idea how well it would work using the liquid lubes and tight patchs used for trail walks and matches as I just hunt with it.   For that it works very well.

DP

[Daryl]

I was actually also referring to the way my .32 likes TOTW mink oil for trail walks.  The last shot of the day, actually loads easier than the first did, althoguh it's such a fine line of ease for both, it's difficult to make a definite statement either way.