Author Topic: scraping, staining, burnishing, and sealing, sequence and techniques (Read 13053 times)

rich pierce · « **on:** September 26, 2012, 05:35:22 PM »

New topic, how to scrape and burnish a stock. Jim Kibler mentioned scraping and burnishing in his comments on Bill Shipman's early Virginia rifle.

Jim and others, do you burnish after staining and before sealing or after staining and sealing?

Do you prefer hard or soft burnishing? I mean with an antler, smooth steel etc for hard burnishing and a crumpled paper bag or hard linen cloth for soft burnishing. I have noted that when hard burnishing tool handles (my usual practice is to go from spokeshaved surface to a light scraping then hard burnishing for axe or hammer or maul handles, and I burnish using a LOT of force) the handle does not even want to wet with varnish sometimes.

Ryan McNabb · « **Reply #1 on:** September 26, 2012, 05:47:16 PM »

A common stainless steel spoon is great to take the "new" off of carving. I've done it a couple of times and found the effect pleasing. I know the Redcoats used to bone their stocks but I've never found the right bone I guess.

Anything I do that is an attempt to recreate aging, I try to do in the order it would have occurred naturally. The stock would have originally been carved, then finished, then used (burnished), in that order, and I did the same thing. I went back over things with wadded up construction paper and a little linseed oil to even out the surfaces. I will sometimes rub some "dirty oil" (linseed mixed with lamp black) into the cracks.

I've not tried any other coloring/patination/tarnishing, etc. but when I see Jud's rifles it makes me wish I knew how to do it so amazingly. Is there anything sexier than one of his "grungy" Dickert copies? I just have no clue how to begin. Hershel once said "Black spray paint", but I think he was joking. Surely he was joking.

C Wallingford · « **Reply #2 on:** September 26, 2012, 06:21:09 PM »

[I've not tried any other coloring/patination/tarnishing, etc. but when I see Jud's rifles it makes me wish I knew how to do it so amazingly. Is there anything sexier than one of his "grungy" Dickert copies? I just have no clue how to begin. Hershel once said "Black spray paint", but I think he was joking. Surely he was joking.
[/quote]

He is not joking.

rich pierce · « **Reply #3 on:** September 26, 2012, 06:24:07 PM »

Agree, others also use flat black paint. Some use artists colors mixed with finishing oil, burnt umber, etc. I tried some spray stuff made for lining the bed of a pickup truck once. It had a lot of texture. I got scared and wiped it off. I think there is a lot of knowledge about achieving aged finishes in the cabinetry/furniture restoration business.

Jackie Brown · « **Reply #4 on:** September 26, 2012, 06:33:02 PM »

Quote from: C Wallingford on September 26, 2012, 06:21:09 PM

[I've not tried any other coloring/patination/tarnishing, etc. but when I see Jud's rifles it makes me wish I knew how to do it so amazingly. Is there anything sexier than one of his "grungy" Dickert copies? I just have no clue how to begin. Hershel once said "Black spray paint", but I think he was joking. Surely he was joking.

He is not joking.
[/quote]

Charlie, he is definitely not joking. LOL

Jim Kibler · « **Reply #5 on:** September 26, 2012, 06:50:47 PM »

As far as burnishing goes, I do it primarily after staining and sealing. I do apply the ferric nitrate (aqua fortis) with a scothchbrite pad and scrup pretty hard, however. This most certainly burnishises to some degree, but when burnishing with something hard, such as an antler, it's after sealing. You can really be prett agressive with the process, going right over carving, edge, corners etc. In fact it gives a neat look to work corners and edges fairly heavy. The results in some ways are subtle, but when compared to a stock that was only sanded, there is a defference.

As far as darkening and aging of the stock, I'll say that there is some done exceptionally well that has a great deal of appeal or has the look or an original, and there is a LOT that's not done well. It really does require a lot of work and time not only to accomplish the task, but also in the learning process.

Ryan McNabb · « **Reply #6 on:** September 26, 2012, 09:27:46 PM »

Quote from: Jackie Brown on September 26, 2012, 06:33:02 PM

Quote from: C Wallingford on September 26, 2012, 06:21:09 PM
[I've not tried any other coloring/patination/tarnishing, etc. but when I see Jud's rifles it makes me wish I knew how to do it so amazingly. Is there anything sexier than one of his "grungy" Dickert copies? I just have no clue how to begin. Hershel once said "Black spray paint", but I think he was joking. Surely he was joking.

He is not joking.

Charlie, he is definitely not joking. LOL
[/quote]

So, then...with a rifle finished like that, the more you use it, the newer it looks?

Long John · « **Reply #7 on:** September 27, 2012, 05:09:50 PM »

Rich,

I am an amateur so don't take my reply too seriously!

I burnish with piece of 1" diameter hemp rope made into a brush-like affair. I burnish between coats of stain. Since I use a vinegar/iron stain it takes several coats to get enough iron into the wood to achieve my objectives. The burnishing is with hemp seems to do a good job de-wiskering the stock also.

I have never tried burnishing with somethin real hard. Maybe on teh next rifle.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

Don Getz · « **Reply #8 on:** September 27, 2012, 05:32:44 PM »

Regarding the black spray paint. The late Dave Dodds used black spray paint on almost every gun he built. If you have
ever looked as a bunch of his guns you will see how similar they are, they lookd good. There are some great builders
out there that have achieved that mysterious aging process. As for Herschel, I never saw a gun by him that I didn't
like..........Don

JohnTyg · « **Reply #9 on:** September 27, 2012, 06:32:27 PM »

Please humor my novice question.

What is the intent of burnishing wood, what are the effects or subtle differences?

Does this make a softer wood like red maple appear more like a well polished piece of sugar maple or something else? Finishing up the carving on my rifle and starting to think about finishes.

John

T*O*F · « **Reply #10 on:** September 27, 2012, 06:49:17 PM »

Quote

What is the intent of burnishing wood

Burnishing wood compresses the fibers of the wood and in the process closes up the pores. Burnishing is different than polishing and is done with an object much harder than the wood. If an object softer than the wood is used, it is just polishing to a higher degree.

Burnishing is also done to metal to the same effect with the added benefit of making the part more rust resistant. Rust starts in pits. If those pits have been burnished closed, there is less chance for rust to find an initial purchase to start.

Jim Kibler · « **Reply #11 on:** September 27, 2012, 07:08:02 PM »

Quote from: John Tygart on September 27, 2012, 06:32:27 PM

Please humor my novice question.

What is the intent of burnishing wood, what are the effects or subtle differences?

Does this make a softer wood like red maple appear more like a well polished piece of sugar maple or something else? Finishing up the carving on my rifle and starting to think about finishes.

John

Well, I don't really know how excatly to describe it. It definetly changes the look and how light reflects off the surface. On curly wood, it can create or accentuate how the surface ripples with the curl. All I can reall say is that I like it and would encourage people to give it a try.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #12 on:** September 27, 2012, 07:44:20 PM »

Try not to press too hard with the burnisher. You can do spot damage, like denting, that is pretty hard to ignore later on.

I use a piece of deer antler spike, highly polished. The cut off end is wedge shaped, also polished, to get into nooks and crannies of the carved background.

Jim Kibler · « **Reply #13 on:** September 27, 2012, 08:03:06 PM »

Kind of interesting how different people have different techniques. I press fairly hard, but keep the burnisher moving. I really don't try to get into nooks and crannies too awful much, but rather just go over everything. I probably pay more attention to corners. I really don't take a lot of care in the process. I use a deer antler too.

The gun I made shown on this page was burnished basically as described above.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=22963.45

Jim

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #14 on:** September 27, 2012, 08:08:41 PM »

Since my carving and backgrounding is not as smooth as some other builders(cough-cough), I cheat with a little burnishing.

JohnTyg · « **Reply #15 on:** September 27, 2012, 08:29:23 PM »

I was thinking about getting some red highlights in the wood.

If I first applied a red stain, burnished the stock in the elevated wear areas thereby closing up the grain somewhat, and then doing a darker stain over everything would this accomplish anything? Would there be less take-up of the second stain in burnishes areas? Guess I'd better do some experimentation first.

Jerry V Lape · « **Reply #16 on:** September 27, 2012, 08:43:27 PM »

John one of the few things I do know is that only experimenting on a scrap of the same wood as the stock will tell you what a stain, finish or process produce. Take some of your scrap, cut it into sample pieces and conduct experiments. Some of the advice given by the better builders will give you a starting point.

rich pierce · « **Reply #17 on:** September 27, 2012, 09:16:06 PM »

Quote from: John Tygart on September 27, 2012, 08:29:23 PM

I was thinking about getting some red highlights in the wood.

If I first applied a red stain, burnished the stock in the elevated wear areas thereby closing up the grain somewhat, and then doing a darker stain over everything would this accomplish anything? Would there be less take-up of the second stain in burnishes areas? Guess I'd better do some experimentation first.

In my experience burnishing really closes pores and will prevent (on unsealed wood) uptake of stain. It will also inhibit uptake of finish or sealant or anything else by closing pores. From what I've read above, most folks are burnishing after staining and sealing the stock.

I've experimented with trying to get different colors or tones on a stock and the best I am able to do is stain the whole stock pretty dark then rub it back in wear areas. If using aquafortis, this will result in light and dark areas, but not much color difference. Some who use dyes and water based stains use multiple applications of different colors or selective local staining with combinations of yellow, red, brown, orange and black to replicate or evoke the tones found on well-used originals.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #18 on:** September 27, 2012, 09:34:35 PM »

Yes, Rich, I usually use AF and then scrub back, either with scotchbrite or steel wool. Then for dirty overtones, I'll use artists oils mixed with the finish. Burnt umber, lampblack, etc. Careful, some of the oils colours are semi-transparent(good), and others are opaque(bad).

Careful with steel wool: it can get embedded in the finish. It shows up as little bright flakes stuck in the pores. I've had more trouble with walnut, not so much wit maple, in this respect.

James · « **Reply #19 on:** September 27, 2012, 11:52:05 PM »

I would like to thank all of you for having this discussion right now. I had decided to scrape and burnish rather than sand and had started burnishing with an antler before staining. I'm grateful to you for stopping me early, I appreciate it.
Thank you,
Jim

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #20 on:** September 27, 2012, 11:59:35 PM »

I find that AF raises the grain, so I whisker with steel wool(on maple, anyway). If I don't like the color, I keep messing with it, staining, wooling until I'm happy. (or come to the realization I'd better stop messing with it

)

If I'm happy with the color, I will steel wool, wipe clean, seal with a good soaking coat of shellac, wipe off any excess, then burnish once dry, then boiled linseed oil, very very thin.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #21 on:** September 28, 2012, 12:01:56 AM »

please don't read into it that my way is the way...by the way...

It works for me on some guns.

Meteorman · « **Reply #22 on:** September 28, 2012, 01:41:07 AM »

i had used deer antler spike for burnishing over a sanded stock. wasn't all that impressed.
then I used antler over a mostly scraped stock, I was likin" it better.
attended Al Martin's session on scraping and burnishing a stock at Dixon's this year - he was burnishing with a short piece of hickory ramrod rounded on one end, and sorta crescent on the other for nooks and crannies.
So I tried that on a totally scraped stock just a few weeks ago, and maybe its just in my head, or the particular piece of wood, but that combination produced a surface i'm pretty dang happy with.
IMHO anyone using sandpaper oughta give scraping a try - I bet most won't go back!
/mike millard

News:

Author Topic: scraping, staining, burnishing, and sealing, sequence and techniques (Read 13053 times)

JohnTyg

JohnTyg

Meteorman