A question

[Mark Elliott]

Jim,

I haven't been around here in a while, but I think what you are referring to is that the new folks don't understand that they are sharing a forum with some of the leading lights in the recreation of the American longrifle.    They just don't know enough to know who is who, and to whom they should be listening.     If I hadn't seen your work and talked to you, and heard others I respect gush about you,  I wouldn't know that I should pay close attention to what you say or to yours and my mentor whom they also don't know from a hole in the ground.    Of course, you never know who you are talking to.    Some of us learn after a while that we should avoid spreading around the manure until we do know who is in our audience.        

[Stone River]

I just wanted to take a moment to say thank you to all the members of this forum for their help, guidance and patience you all have offered and shown to myself and others.  Many thanks and your responses, like Acer mentioned not only reach the original poster, but many others as well.

I am totally new to this art and when I made my 1st few post I like others in my situation did not realize the caliber of builders who are kind enough to post on this forum.  After a few months of lurking I was truly amazed at the talent here and embarrassed about the questions that I asked previously so thanks for not throwing me to the fire.  Just shows again the character of the members of this forum.

Some suggestions for newbies like me that I'll throw out.  Remember to check the Tutorials, and archives for answers to your questions for the answer is probably there.  I also read every topic.  I have found that even though it may not be regarding something I'm currently interested in, many times the photos included have answered other questions that I had assembling a longrifle.  Just as a case in point Jerry V asked about lock inlets as day or two ago.  Acer kindly posted a picture of what he does.  I certainly learned a lot on inletting, but the real gem for me was Acer's photo with the triggerguard pin location.  I've been staring at my project for weeks to solve that issue.

Thanks again members.
Dan

[Acer Saccharum]

As a teacher I realized that some students are more difficult than others.

As a student, I have realized that some teachers are more difficult than others.

[Larry Pletcher]

As a teacher I realized that some students are more difficult than others.

As a student, I have realized that some teachers are more difficult than others.

Hi Tom,
Very true.  Many years ago in a galaxy far away, I sat in the opening class of the semester.  The prof read the names on the roll and then said, "If I pronounced your name differently than you do, see me after class.  I'd be glad show you your mistake."  This was a preview of what the class was like.
Regards,
Pletch

[fm tim]

Wonderful thread to open this discussion!

I can only hope that the really good builders on the board are not discouraged enough to leave because of the issues being discussed.

I can not define an expert, but I have spent enough time on the board to know which posts to believe, and which posts to ignore.

We can only hope that new members will spend enough time to recognize the information posted, and its validity, before they start to post themselves just to see their names on "the web".

[Don Tripp]

It might help members who have not been on the site very long if everybody used their real names or at least had their name listed in their info.

[Jim Kibler]

Wonderful thread to open this discussion!

I can only hope that the really good builders on the board are not discouraged enough to leave because of the issues being discussed.

I can not define an expert, but I have spent enough time on the board to know which posts to believe, and which posts to ignore.

We can only hope that new members will spend enough time to recognize the information posted, and its validity, before they start to post themselves just to see their names on "the web".

Well, the truth is that good builders, students etc. have chosen not to continue to participate due to the issues discussed.  And to be clear, these are well respected, kind individuals that have just decided it's not worth it.  Just the facts...

Jim

[rick landes]

I always appreciate that someone will take the time to reply to my query. If I have something to share I hope it is received in that same spirit. I have learned, shared, been corrected and encouraged by the efforts of others on my behalf. I am grateful and indebted for the assistance. I hope I am able to share what I might to others who might find the info of use.
May I ever stay small  in mine own eyes.

[rich pierce]

Well, the truth is that good builders, students etc. have chosen not to continue to participate due to the issues discussed.  And to be clear, these are well respected, kind individuals that have just decided it's not worth it.  Just the facts...

Jim

Many of those same well respected, kind builders probably help build the craft in many other ways, through classes, etc, where the give and take is more clearly defined as a teacher-student relationship.  I'm not sure that sort of relationship can be created, monitored and enforced on a forum, though it would be great to have more builders of the master class involved.  Even if internet forum users didn't tend to be independent because of the remoteness of the communication, it does not seem practicable to designate some (and not others) as teachers or masters, or "professionals" because there is also a wide variability in the approaches and goals of pro builders.  I think we're stuck unless those folks have suggestions, which the moderators would pursue eagerly, I think.

[Jim Kibler]

Yes, the very nature of a forum such as this causes the issues that have been brought up.  Just part of what it is.  With that said, what will help a situation like this is to be aware that it exists and be mindful of it.

Jim

[Acer Saccharum]

A forum can certainly turn into a circus. This forum does at times. It's the nature of the beast. There may be few masters who are willing to put up with the forum style of communication.

Forum is a designated space for public expression. That's we have, that's what needs to be accepted when you are a member.

A different desired outcome will need a different structure, an example would be a school, with a teacher(s) and a class.

[JCKelly]

Slightly off, but I can say that in the Black Powder Shooting forum I have been able to figure out who are the two or three most knowledgable.

Building is a different matter. Opinions on style & finish are strongly held. Perhaps a bit like what is the best whiskey? The contemporary style is an amazing (to me) degree of precision in the fit and finish of gun making.
 
It may be sour grapes on my part, as I cannot begin to match the skill and artistry I see quite frequently here. Nevertheless, the idea that these things actually contain an explosion impresses me as an engineer. Occasionally I've seen the results of ignoring the "engineering", or practical, aspects of gunmaking, both muzzle and breech loading guns. I wonder about some aspects of design. For example, using a 5/8" breech plug in a 13/16" straight barrel? You'd think I'd learn not to question these things, now wouldn't you? I am aware it is unpopular to bring up such matters in a public forum.

Anyway, there is an endless wealth of public information here concerning how to make a fine looking rifle. Use what works for you, you've no boss to please.

[Acer Saccharum]

JC, one thing you touch on, and I will add to: there is a constant stream of new people coming into this calling. The muzzle loader itself is new to some, how to build one is new, and advice how to get a gun from a concept on the workbench to the shooting range is scant.

That is where the ALR can really be of service. If this groups needs aren't met, they may give up or go away.

So that is one function of the ALR.


This forum is also a place for those more advanced to trade ideas, show finished work, get critique.

That is another sector of population of the ALR.


Then you have the professional group. Show their work, offer advice, exchange ideas.
That is yet a third group, but you'll find all kinds of special interest in between and around these groups. Rev War, smoothbores, high art, Traditional, and on and on.


It's hard to meet the goals of all the different groups in just one forum(maybe nigh impossible). So, of course there will be distress, because it's often all the groups that are talking at once. Material goes over some heads, it's too trite for others, and sometimes it looks like a bunch of chatter. It takes a certain amount of tolerance to get thru the ALR day without losing your cool, and sometimes you find the tip that makes your day.

This is the nature of the beast.

[Stophel]

I have not been here much lately, but I have not seen nearly as much bitterness here as I see regularly on other boards.  You want to get smart___ responses and start a fight? Go ask a question, any question, on the F_______ F____board!     I RARELY post anything there now, and several folks have left I'm sure simply because of the attitudes of several participants make it impossible to have a civil discussion.

It's all about attitude.  I'm sure some people think I'm a know-it-all and quick to offer my opinion,  but I do try to be nice about it.  I also don't try to wrestle with pigs.

Some folks know quite a bit, and the information they provide can be helpful, but they KNOW that they know, and all must bow before their superior knowledge and be grateful for whatever morsels they decide to toss out before us mere mortals, and woe be to anyone who questions them.

Some folks know nothing and don't care, and seem to take it as a personal insult anytime anyone says anything about something being period correct, for example, and immediately lay in with the "my CVA rifle is just as good as any $2500 custom fancy schmantzy glitzy gun..."  (on other boards you see "my Hi Point is just as good as your Colt Python....  ).  Even if the discussion had NOTHING whatsoever to do with them before they jumped in.

Some folks are "experts" because they have "been doin' this for 40 years"... even though they've been doing it wrong for 40 years....  Don't dare question them either.

Some folks just like to argue.  Don't ask me why.

Some folks are new or know little, and yet totally reject good advice given to them.  I don't know why people do that either.

Attitudes like these make it difficult to discuss anything.  Attitudes like these have destroyed forums.  Attitudes like these really turn off newcomers (and old timers alike).


But, advice and opinions can be given and taken with decorum and grace, and things can be discussed politely (if even heatedly), and I'm glad I see these types of attitudes here on this board.   

[Mike Brooks]

Honestly,the only really rude behavior I remember on this board is my own. But, I only read a very small percentage of the posts.

[Rich]

I think people learn and process information differently. Some can read and learn, some have to do the task, some argue it through, and some are the basis for the observation that "an empty barrel makes the most noise".

[Acer Saccharum]

I learn best by making mistakes. That way, I fully learn NOT to do the same thing again.

I do learn better by pictures and hands-on. I'm not a great learn-from-text kind of person.

[WadePatton]

...
The web is a messy and conflicted place. But it's also an incredible resource. Take it for what it's worth.

well, i may likely be one who has ruffled a feather and fit some of the above characterizations. 

thanks to Rich and Tom (and anyone else) who took the trouble to let me know, 4 pages later, that my (most recent-maybe obnoxious) quest was quite impossible.  I simply get loaded with boyish enthusiasm (it's a good thing to do now and then) and read too fast/incompletely to let all the wisdom sink in. Sometimes a re-read "turns on a light" for me.

and maybe sometimes i am frustrated by current state of employment and lack "educational opportunities" related to that. 

as to the experts.  Heck yeah, that's why i'm here.  There are a few experts in nearly every field of endeavor who spend a bit of their time socializing and sharing their ideas online in forums.  This is it for longrifles.   This is the "collective" and is how one man can affect the works of hundreds, without having them kicking around in the dust and chips, underfoot at the shop, and asking for gas money for the weekend.  This is the modern place to pass the torch.  It has its limitations, and we must recognize those, but I have a deep respect for accomplished historians and builders posting here and the folks who bother to manage sites such as ALR. 

once again (and i know this thread pre-dates my lil' ol thread), i did not mean to offend or seem insincere or thick-headed or unappreciative of those who attempted to give guidance and direction there.  may the grain turn your way.

WP

[Acer Saccharum]

Wade, we've all been in the same boat in one way or another.

I've built a lot of guns over the years, but I am no expert. It took me about twenty five guns before I discovered the ALR and Dixon's Gunmaker's Fair. I spent many years building finely crafted guns 'what I imagined a longrifle to be'. Not a waste of time, but humbling when I run across work that really has it all. I speak of work like Bill Shipman, Eric Kettenburg, Allen Martin, iPratt (like the iPhone), just to mention a few. I have so much to learn. It's not possible to 'get it right' in just one gun... or ten...(unless you're child genius like Jim Kibler).

Then there is the aspect of guns from the 18th and 19th centuries. There is incredible variety in artistry and quality. That these guns were tools, first and foremost, is evident when you look at ( and handle them, if you're lucky ).

Do we make the guns today, as tools, as art, or both? I am sure, with ten builders in the room, you'll have ten different answers.

I drifted off topic. My apologies.

[Gaeckle]

Wade, we've all been in the same boat in one way or another.

I've built a lot of guns over the years, but I am no expert. It took me about twenty five guns before I discovered the ALR and Dixon's Gunmaker's Fair. I spent many years building finely crafted guns 'what I imagined a longrifle to be'. Not a waste of time, but humbling when I run across work that really has it all. I speak of work like Bill Shipman, Eric Kettenburg, Allen Martin, iPratt (like the iPhone), just to mention a few. I have so much to learn. It's not possible to 'get it right' in just one gun... or ten...(unless you're child genius like Jim Kibler).

Perhaps what happens that average builders look upwards to those on an elevated level and hope to excell to those hieghts, but.......it is easy to become intimidated by those on that higher level.

As far as I can see: Tom, you are not average.

Over the weekend at the Log Cabin event, I asked a well known maker: "How did you ever learn all this stuff?" and the reply was a lot of mistakes. That's pretty much humbling in my opinion. It's also a relief knowing that good things come from mistakes.

I bet most of us when we read the "how to...." stuff we process that info, but don't quite get the whole picture. However, if we watch somebody do something we can absorb the whole idea and process, then we revamp what we've seen and try to do the same.

At the same time we then take our tools, our sinew, muscle, they way we hold things, our stance, our approach and have at it......it may be different than the way we saw it, but we've adapted what we saw to how we are made and how we do things........

......just an opinion.........

[Eric Smith]

I've built a lot of guns over the years, but I am no expert. It took me about twenty five guns before I discovered the ALR and Dixon's Gunmaker's Fair. I spent many years building finely crafted guns 'what I imagined a longrifle to be'. Not a waste of time, but humbling when I run across work that really has it all. I speak of work like Bill Shipman, Eric Kettenburg, Allen Martin, iPratt (like the iPhone), just to mention a few. I have so much to learn. It's not possible to 'get it right' in just one gun... or ten...(unless you're child genius like Jim Kibler).

Tom, Ive seen your work displayed her on the forum, and I would say you have an abundance of talent. I see your posts, and tutorials, and the advice so freely given. You are one of the most valuable assets the ALR has.

[Acer Saccharum]

Over the weekend at the Log Cabin event, I asked a well known maker: "How did you ever learn all this stuff?" and the reply was a lot of mistakes. That's pretty much humbling in my opinion. It's also a relief knowing that good things come from mistakes.

I bet most of us when we read the "how to...." stuff we process that info, but don't quite get the whole picture. However, if we watch somebody do something we can absorb the whole idea and process, then we revamp what we've seen and try to do the same.

You can't appreciate the whole picture until you've been thru the process several(or many) times. It's part learning by repetition, and with that comes understanding. But this is not something that can be understood only by reading about it. You've got to experience the work, train the hands, mind, and eye to work together.

I learn by mistakes. That is after I've spent hours of reading and fantasizing about the 'perfect gun' only to drill a hole in the wrong place, inlet something too sloppy, put the buttplate on crooked.....just because I've not learned what the pitfalls are of the process. But now I know, because my dream is dashed to pieces. I'll remember this the next time I inlet that plate, to get the extension parallel with the comb. Or straighten out the guard before I inlet it, or file a bevel on the edges of the lock.......so many details.