Author Topic: Flintlock and resistance to change  (Read 11577 times)

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Flintlock and resistance to change
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2012, 05:13:45 PM »
In March 1830 Ramsey Crooks wrote to J.J. Henry that "...Percussion Locks will not do at all for the Rifles, and I beg you will be most particular in selecting the Flint Locks required, price being a secondary consideration."

John Bidwell wrote one of the leaders of an 1841 immigrant party to Cal. wrote, "my gun was an old flint-lock rifle, but a good one. Old hunters told me to have nothing to do with cap or percussion locks, that they were not reliable..."

These two from "Firearms of the American West 1803-1865". Which also contains passages stating that the shot in the east converted to percussion rapidily circa 1830 and the eastern hunters went over to percussion rifles as well. But this was the east which was not remote in the same way that "Cross Creeks of the Yellowstone" was in 1830 or even 1840.
I have examined an 1840 dated Connestoga Rifle Works rifle that was obviously a trade item for the west, 54 cal, cheap lock, sloppily stocked for the time, never fired that we could tell. Probably "NOS" item.
The shotgun in England was taken by storm as the wing shooters, for obvious reasons, converted to percussion, but the rifle hung on as flintlock for awhile according to N. George.
I have read that its thought, by some, that Melchior Fordney never made a percussion gun. I find it a stretch myself, but I lack the knowledge to pontificate either way.

I shoot flint almost exclusively. In the matches I shoot I have far fewer ignition problems that some percussion shooters do. Nor do I spend a lot of time fussing with the vent or frizzen and pan.
Yesterday I was shooting my swivel breech and let the pan and frizzen get caked enough to let the priming run out of the pan if the if the pan was not kept up and level. But some spit on a patch fixed this. It was also a pain to load and prime with the wind velocity. But the percussion would have been no easier to load.
This rifle and my heavy rifle are so reliable that I never think about it much. In a long string of shots. 10-15 I may get a misfire if a piece of fouling  blocks the vent or if the flint wears out. But this can be eliminated by loading procedures and looking at the flint. I never have  misfires with a clean gun. Its been over 25 years since I have had one I can recall.
A good percussion gun is very reliable. But they still need a cover in wet weather.
I have had a percussion rifle that had ignition cycles that were hardly better than a flintlock, pop-bang every shot. Not typical but it did do this due to a poorly designed breech.

If a person had a good flintlock that was sure fire and his partner upgraded to percussion and it gave him fits would this guy be anxious to "up grade" as well? Especially if headed for the Upper Missouri?
In FAW cited above you will find people who wrote bitterly of their misfiring flintlock. But then I have to wonder at the quality of the lock (America was flooded with very cheap locks from Birmingham in both technologies) and its state of repair.  And the shooters ability to know how to keep a flintlock shooting.
There was far more to the flintlocks long survival in the west than people resisting change. A good flintlock gives up very little to a percussion rifle and we need to remember that the American version of the percussion gun typically was not on a par with the English guns of 1830-1835. But many Americans were too cheap to pay for a high quality patent breech percussion gun.  This cheapness carries over to today as well in many components we buy.
Either Dillon or Cline speak of finding an old timer in the early 20th c. and buying from him a flintlock rifle that he was still using as a hunting arm. This speaks volumes that almost 100 years after the percussion system was common in the east a few people were still using the flintlock. It may not have even been by choice. But the flintlock was still on the job.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Flintlock and resistance to change
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2012, 09:40:10 PM »
Well, Melchoir Fordney made at least one rifle in percussion and it's hanging up on my wall. No doubts about its originality; others, far more qualified than I have looked it over, and pronounced it to be correct.
As to percussion use: a California historical society had a pair of Philip Creamer pistols that were known to have been taken from Jedediah Smith when he was arrested by the alcalde of San Diego in 1828. These were in percussion and had been made that way. a pretty early acceptance date by a notable fur trapper, if you ask me. We must not apply the specific to the universe however, and say that 'cap guns' were all the rage with wide western reliance. Still, there are indications that they were not an exotic item either.
Some time back, the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade Journal ran a scholarly article on the western travels of trader Nathanial Wyeth in 1834, or so. One of the major items in his inventory happened to percussion caps and he apparently had a great quantify which he sold/traded with no difficulty. So, there seem to have been many folks on the frontiers that had/liked cap guns. It may well be that they had one of each just to hedge their bets, but scholars generally seem to agree that caps were not a rarity in those times and places.
Dick

Offline bgf

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Re: Flintlock and resistance to change
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2012, 10:03:27 PM »
It seems like the question is was adoption of caplock more widespread ca. 1830 or 1840.  I'd vote for 1840 and significant holdouts for another decade most likely.  If somebody bought a flintlock in 1825 for example, they probably didn't have any need to even consider caps for a decade at least.  That would take them to at least 1835.  My guess is that at least half would have selected the best new technology, while the other half would have stuck with flint either upgrading an older rifle or buying a new one.  And, I wouldn't underestimate the importance of a caplock being cheaper to make and buy, as well as supposedly more reliable.  Then as now, I would expect many were tempted by the cheaper lock and figured they would pay for the caps somehow, just as people make the same sort of decisions these days, with razor(blades) and such.  It would not have been a bad sort of calculation in many cases, where the gun was used only rarely.  I suspect "professionals" were more conservative about changing, but they likely had of necessity figured out how to make a flintlock work well.  For the average person, esp. in the east, a cheap caplock probably worked 10x better than a cheap flintlock, just like now :)!

Offline DaveM

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Re: Flintlock and resistance to change
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2012, 02:44:45 AM »
There was an old thread on this forum from a couple of years ago with some interesting notes about this subject.  someone posted that in the Pittsburgh directory, printed in 1825, said that  " of the 6 gunsmiths, all made the new percussion lock."  I think this is really interesting and is very telling.  Maybe started further east even sooner.  Very interesting also that it likely means that some of the first percussion locks made by the local gunsmiths were of their own make, and not like the later commercial type that is so commonly found.  I wonder if the plates looked more like a flint-type plates on these earliest ones?

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Flintlock and resistance to change
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2012, 06:42:42 AM »
Sure there were percussion guns in the west in the 1830s. But there were also a LOT of flintlocks far into the percussion era.
There is a mindset with many that when the percussion system was invented the flintlock was immediately thrown on the trash heap. This was not the case as is shown in the writings of the time. This was the point of my previous post. That the flintlock staid in use for a long time after the invention of the percussion cap.
Worman and Garavaglia note that the flintlock hung on far longer in the west and stated that given this fact its nearly impossible for the Hawken brothers to not have made some flintlock "mountain rifles".
Then we have the infuriating tendency of people of the time to not mention any specifics about the firearms used. Unless someone "primes his gun afresh" or the cap exploded but the gun did not discharge we don't know what they had except it was a rifle or perhaps only a "gun". "Rifle" could mean one of either ignition system, "gun" could mean almost anything that used powder to expel a projectile.

There were the 3 trappers whose powder got so damaged by moisture that they had to go to a post and have their rifles converted from flint, this was sometime in the 1830s so obviously there were caps in the west.  Joe Meek poped a cap on a Sow Grizzly and had an "adventure" due to the misfire. I don't know when the American Fur Company started ordering significant numbers of percussion guns but the "Scroll Guard" rifle designed in 1834 for use in the west, was a flintlock. I do not believe they ALL were sold to natives either.
The fact that Crooks specified that no percussion locks were wanted in 1830 shows that it was well known by that time. This would not prevent Crooks from having a percussion rifle for his personal arm. IIRC he odered a pair of percussion pistols in 1835.

We need to remember that percussion cap as we know it was apparently not marketed until at least 1820.  The first were reusable iron IIRC, not very practical. So the cap had to be produced, the nipples to use it had to be produced etc etc. This did not take place overnight. There was little standardization so this compounded the problem for people in remote areas.
Not all caps were created equal, they still are not, so there were variations. These variations would not effect the shotgun much but they CAN cause accuracy problems with rifles.
Then corrosion. BP is relatively benign in this regard compared to the components in the percussion caps.  Some of these things were aggressively corrosive.
Part of my posting is to point out that there are other factors besides "it goes bang" with BOTH systems.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine