harpers ferry lock

[ROSIE]

What is the size of a original Harpers Ferry lock. I think I have one but am not sure. It is 6-1/2" lonr and about 1-1/8"wide.and in good condition.

[fm tim]

My Harpers Ferry model 1816 #2 lock plate is 6 5/8 long and 1 1/4 high

[Don Stith]

Is it stamped and dated? If not why do you think it is a HF lock. THeir locks varied in size and shape even on the same year and model. The pistol locks, musket locks and rifle locks were also different sizes

[ROSIE]

I can see the HF eagle in the center but the date is unreadable.The cock is renforced so Iknow it's a Harpers Ferry.What possible dates could it be?

[ROSIE]

I also forgot to mention it is a flintlock.

[JWBlair]

Is the cock flat faced or rounded?Iron flash pan or brass? Does the eagles head face to the pan or the cock?Generally speaking HF eagles faced the cock and SA eagles faced the muzzle.The re-enforced cock was used on all Springfield,Harpers Ferry,and contract locks from the Charleville patterns through the 1835/40 pattern muskets.The date of manufacture and armory markings are on the tail of the lock not under the eagle on HF and SA muskets.

[ROSIE]

The cock is rounded ,it has airon flash pan and the eagle faces the cock.Although the lock functions quite well the date is unreadable  due to corrosion.

[JTR]

A picture would be worth at least a thousand words here.....

John

[JWBlair]

Indeed it would.The iron pan indicates production prior to the 1816 models but the rounded cock points to possibly a contract musket lock.Armory production locks didn't use round faced cocks until the Model 1816 but that lock and later ones had brass flash pans.There are many variations on the early Charleville pattern muskets with numerous contractors.

[JTR]

Plus it could be a reconversion back to flint,, maybe or maybe not using the correct parts.
John

[JWBlair]

Or an older lock with a later cock from a repair.Detail pictures needed,especially of the eagle.

[JCKelly]

Harpers Ferry pistol lock dated 1807 is 4-3/4" long

Harpers Ferry half-stock rifle lock dated 1818 is 5-1/4" long

Harpers Ferry Model 1795 dated 1812 musket, lock plate 6-7/16" long.

Bear in mind that:
Harpers Ferry guns were skillfully made by hand, interchangable parts not being in the picture then. I have no knowledge of dimensional tolerances on plate lengths.

Both that rifle and I appear to have gained weight over the years. This is reflected in my girth, though my overall length has not increased. Can't say about the gun lock.

[JWBlair]

For pictures and some dimensional data you might see if your local library can get Peter A.Schmidt's U.S.Military Flintlock Muskets-The Early Years 1790-1815.It has pictures of armory production as well as contract production locks with pertinent info on the eagles and other differences such as hammers.

[JTR]

I think DAVID L has vanished!

John

[ROSIE]

No David L is still here but I've been out hunting for a few days.I'll get some pictures and post them as soon as I can

[Curt Larsen]

A couple of you have mentioned this, but Harpers Ferry did not really produce interchangeable parts until the 1840's.  Other than the Hall rifle that was produced at Harpers Ferry and had interchageable parts, the muskets made there were generally produced more or less individually even though there was some division of labor with people specializing in certain parts.  Also, HF apparently produced the model 1816 until they were finally replaced by the model 1842 percussion musket (with truly interchangeable parts).  The two drawings I have used for the model 1803 I plan to build show slightly different lock outlines between their early model and later model productions.  I suspect some of this might be due to individual armourers producing them.  I don't know  of anyone who has studied many of those models to come up with some sort of average shape.  The management and workforce at HF resisted standardization and mechanized production for many years until forced into it by the Ordnance Department.  They were years behind the Springfield amory.

[JWBlair]

If I remember correctly the first U.S. arsenal weapon produced using gauges for interchangeability of parts was the M1841 Rifle.Prior to that they were made to a pattern musket hand built one at a time by the armory.No two of those will be exactly alike even if it's of the same model.Many of those flint musket locks are easier IDed by the style of the eagle on the lock plate if the makers name is obliterated,particularly the contract muskets compared to armory eagles.

[Don Stith]

A couple of you have mentioned this, but Harpers Ferry did not really produce interchangeable parts until the 1840's.  Other than the Hall rifle that was produced at Harpers Ferry and had interchageable parts, the muskets made there were generally produced more or less individually even though there was some division of labor with people specializing in certain parts.  Also, HF apparently produced the model 1816 until they were finally replaced by the model 1842 percussion rifle (with truly interchangeable parts).  The two drawings I have used for the model 1803 I plan to build show slightly different lock outlines between their early model and later model productions.  I suspect some of this might be due to individual armourers producing.  I don't know  of anyone who has studied many of those models to come up with some sort of average shape.  The management and workforce at HF resisted mechanized production for many years until forced into it by the Ordnance Department.  They were years behind the Springfield amory.

Curt
 The stock hardware and architecture are quite different too. You sometimes see some early hardware on the 1814 and early 1815 rifles. I assume that is just using up inventory. THe locks are close in size but are filed up differently

[Curt Larsen]

For those interested in an in depth study of the Harpers Ferry Armory, I recommend a book by Merrit Roe Smith titled "Harpers Ferry Armory and the New Technology."  It is really enlightening to read of all the production problems and the good old boy system that prevailed there.  With that in mind, JW points out that the Model 1841 "Mississippi" rifle was procuced with interchangable parts at HF.  Smith's tabulation of the arms produced at HF shows their first production of Model 1842 muskets was in 1845 (2225 pieces) while the Model 1841 rifle began procuction there the following year with 700 produced.  HF continued to produce the Model 1841 until 1860.  I think Don has really studied various HF guns and has hands on expertise that I don't.